Olivia Columbus [00:00:57] We're here today with Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee, who is the head of operations at Dual Fluid. Claire, welcome to the podcast. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:04] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:04] So, before we jump into Dual Fluid and all the work that you do there, we'd love to learn a little bit about you. Where are you from originally and where has your career gone? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:14] I'm originally from France and I studied engineering. First in undergrad, I got an engineering degree from France. You see, I had a little bit of trouble knowing what I wanted to do in life in those days because I was quite good at mathematics, interested in science, but I also wanted to save the world. So actually, I chose an engineering path. And then, I ended up getting a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from the University of Toronto. And then, I did a little bit of academic research, but then I moved towards management consulting. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:53] And so, I lived in Canada for 10 years after my degree. Canada is a really great country, but I really had a longing to come back to Europe. And my husband, being from India, it worked out so well for him. So, we moved to Germany. And then, I was busy with children for some time. I got to work at the Deutsche Bank, in the Economic Department of the Deutsche Bank. And then, I started working more on long-term trends. And then, I moved a little bit with a focus on African countries and also risk. And then, I took a bit of a break. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:02:36] And then by chance, I happened to hear about Dual Fluid. I had had, for a long time, an interest particularly in natural resources and energy. Not a focus, I must say, on nuclear energy, but I was really excited about their projects and wonderful, very promising technology. And that's how I joined Dual Fluid. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:03] Okay, and where is Dual Fluid based out of?

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:03:06] It's officially a Canadian company with headquarters in Vancouver, but most of our activities currently are actually in Germany, in Berlin. We also have some partners in Poland and we are moving gradually towards Africa as well. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:30] Okay, it's very exciting to see a nuclear company operating in Germany, somewhere where we don't see a lot of nuclear right now. And it's really interesting that you came back to nuclear as someone from France, given France's rich nuclear culture. So, let's talk a little bit about Dual Fluid. Can you give us an overview of Dual Fluid's technology? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:03:51] Yes. First, I can just mention that Dual Fluid as a company was created not too long ago, around three years ago, in 2021. But this was following a fairly long period of research, so we didn't start from scratch. 

Olivia Clumbus [00:04:09] Were you guys spun out of a university or a research project in Canada? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:04:12] Actually, a few of the founders knew each other already at the university, so it's mostly German founders. And then, one of them worked in Canada, in Vancouver, the TRIUMF Lab, and that's why one of the founders is also Canadian. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:28] Oh, okay. Got it. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:04:30] Our main technology is a reactor, what we call a dual fluid reactor. It's very innovative in several ways. The main way is that we are using two fluids. So, we are using metallic fuel, liquid, and the coolant is liquid lead. So, this allows us to have a very, very high efficiency. It's fast neutron reactors. So, we are so efficient that we're using most of the density of the uranium. As you know, uranium has a very high density, but most of it is not used in the usual nuclear reactors, so we have the opportunity to be very efficient, which results, of course, in lower costs. So, that very, very briefly describes our technology. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:05:29] We have a couple of reactors in mind. The first one is called the DF-300 with a power of 300 megawatt electric. And a follow-up product will be the DF-1500, as the name says, 1,500 megawatt electrical. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:48] And your fuel comes from recycled fuel, is that correct? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:05:51] Not necessarily, so not at the beginning. But that's... Yeah, this leads me to a third product which we have which is the pyro processing unit, pyrochemical processing unit. It's also a very innovative way of recycling, actually not the used fuel, but also the cladding material and also the downstream waste gas which can also be treated. So, it's a distillation separation process. So, first chlorination and then distillation. And it allows us to separate the long-lived fission products, actinides, from the short-lived ones. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:06:36] So, the first two will be reused, can be reused as fuel. And the rest, of course, it remains, but the problem is tremendously reduced compared to what it is now, because instead of having to store them for thousands or hundreds of thousands of years until the radioactivity reaches acceptable levels, it will be only a few hundred years, and then they will not be more dangerous than natural uranium. So, the first part we can indeed reuse. It's not a must. We can also use, as I mentioned, a mix of uranium and chromium as a fuel, but we can reuse fuel. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:07:21] At the beginning, the DF-300, it will not be as much of the focus, but for the DF-1500, it will be coupled with one of these pyrochemical process unit. And in fact, it will be a closed loop. And we can also use one of these recycling units to treat our spent nuclear fuel and feed it back to also the the DF-300. But in principle, you're right; we can use existing nuclear waste. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:07:49] We have done some calculations, and for instance, the existing nuclear waste in Germany at the moment, we could use it to feed our reactors and this would provide the German population with electricity for about 300 years. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:08] Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. So, you guys describe yourself as a fifth-generation design. Where are you at in terms of the design for the 300 megawatt reactor? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:08:22] So, we are so much more efficient, which leads to low-cost electricity. We are, of course, clean, as is all nuclear. And we are very safe because our process, this technology, is inherently safe in the sense if temperature increases the fluid expands or the metallic fuel expands and then the reaction slows down dramatically. So, it's inherently safe and it's self-maintained. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:08:53] And we have an additional safety feature, which is a plug that melts when the temperature increases and the fuel by gravity just goes down. And so, basically everything stops. So, it's inherently safe and there's an added safety feature to it. So, that's one aspect. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:16] It's also modular. And so, it will lend itself to countries which do not necessarily have much infrastructure…. We are going to start as soon as possible to think of how to produce it in series. We expect to have our first reactors produced in the early 2030s. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:34] Early 2030s, okay. And you guys are just designing the reactor portion of the plant? You're not producing the energy-producing balance of the plant? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:45] Yeah, we focus on the reactor and we have already started in small ways to find partners. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:54] And where are you guys looking to deploy your first designs? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:58] So at the moment, this technology is still a concept. It's time now that we demonstrate that it works. So, we have defined what we call a critical demonstration experiment. It's a critical assembly demonstration reactor. And we've been thinking for some time what would be the best location for us. We want a location where it can be done relatively quickly. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:10:26] First of all, we are a startup; we cannot afford to have too many years in front of us. And secondly, we're anxious to demonstrate our technology and how it can really help basically solve some big problems that exist at the moment in the world, which is power shortage and also done in a clean way. Because we are not only going to produce electricity... 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:10:53] This is something I haven't mentioned, actually, I forgot. It's a very important feature of our technology. It operates at very high temperatures, which means we can produce electricity, but also directly heat... 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:05] Yes. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:05] To produce, for instance, hydrogen and syn fuels. And also, we can provide heat to any industrial process which is needed in the chemical industry to produce cement or glass. So on both fronts, we believe that we can really help decarbonize, for instance, mobility and most industrial processes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:30] Aviation, absolutely. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:32] Yes. And so in the process of finding a location, we looked into Africa, which is a very natural location in terms of power shortages. This is the lowest energy consumption per capita in the world, as you know. And we tried to find the jurisdiction where our technology is supported, and the countries, of course, very open to innovative nuclear technologies. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:58] And we found Rwanda to be a very good location for us. It provides political stability, very high governance indicators. For instance, very low corruption. The business environment is very good. So, it's very attractive in many ways. The rule of law is also very high. And of course, it's growing very fast. The GDP growth has been above 6% for most of the past years. I think it's expected to be above 7% even in the next couple of years. And we have a lot of support from the government. It's very, very eager to increase their energy supply, of course, in an environmental friendly way. Of course, it's looking also at renewable energy, but they need stable, clean energy. And they have made ways, basically, to develop nuclear energy, which is one of their strong mandates. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:06] Interesting. Would that be just for the research facility or is that for the first commercial facility that you guys look to target Rwanda? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:13:13] So first, we have this critical demonstration reactor. This is going to start as soon as we have closed our financing round, which is what we're in the middle of right now. We expect towards the beginning of 2024 to start building it for a couple of years and then to operate it for another couple of years. And after that, we will look at building our first reactor. And it's not clear yet where it will be, but if all goes well in Rwanda, that's one natural choice. And in parallel, we are also looking at some other countries for the next reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:48] Absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned all the opportunities for clean fuels and clean technologies. You know, I think there's so much potential there to decarbonize the globe. And you really hit on a point that I think is so critical and maybe not discussed enough, which is that energy security point. Producing stable baseload energy through nuclear is so critical no matter the nuclear technology. And there are so many people who don't have access to energy, period, not just clean energy. So, if you can start them on clean energy, it's much better than having to move a country off of that to clean energy. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:14:31] Yes, that's right. We are really hoping... You know, Africa, in many ways, has leapfrogged the rest of the world because in some aspects, they started later. But for instance, in mobile telephony, they started later, but then they moved so fast that they are well ahead of many other countries which had started many decades earlier. So, we are hoping... There are already some African countries which have nuclear energy. Only two I believe; South Africa and Egypt. But there's a humongous need, so we are really excited to see them move toward both increasing their power supply in a way that is not producing emissions. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:15:18] And as you know, nuclear energy is not just not producing emissions, but it's also rather environmentally friendly, especially with these small reactors because it's very low resource usage. Actually, since I'm new to the sector, it really shocked me how little is known. Okay, renewable energies are, of course, environmentally friendly in many ways, but I find it's not discussed enough over the whole life cycle. So, these huge windmills... 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:15:51] First of all, I don't personally like to see forests of windmills; I would prefer to see forests of trees. And we don't discuss enough what happens, at least in the public debate, what happens with these humongous metallic structures. It's not trivial. We know that solar batteries, there are some issues in recycling them. But these small modular reactors, they have very low resource usage. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:16] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I always encourage folks to do research on waste... Really how much waste is produced from different energy sources? Because the amount of waste produced by nuclear on a per person or per megawatt capacity is so much smaller than other energy sources. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:16:35] Yes, especially. It's very different to look at the whole life cycle which is what is often missing. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:40] Absolutely, absolutely. And such an important topic that I think we make sure people are aware of. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:47] Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to give you the opportunity to share your vision for our future, our energy mix, and where you hope nuclear fits into that looking 10, 20, 30 years down the road. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:17:02] I think it's inevitable that nuclear will play a larger role given that we need much more energy, I think by a factor of... We did some calculations. By mid-century, I think the yearly consumption will be multiplied by four or five. So, it's obvious we need much more energy which is clean, so low-carbon. Of course there are at the moment, many currents against nuclear. I mean, being in Germany, we are very well aware of that. But I think it's just a matter of time that people will realize there's just no other way. Nuclear energy will be very significant in the energy landscape of the future. There's just no competitor, no valuable competitor. Of course, it will be a mix, but I think the importance of nuclear will rise tremendously by obligation. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:18:03] I think one of the barriers at the moment is, of course, public perception, but I think it's changing. And something else is the legislation which needs also to move to be pertinent for these new reactors. This is also something which we're confronting with and we're helping to develop, especially in countries that at the moment may not have or do not have legislation for the nuclear sector. We hope to also help them leapfrog in this area so that they develop a legislation which is pertinent to these innovative reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:18:49] Absolutely. Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining us today on Titans of Nuclear. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:18:53] Thank you.