Sarah Howorth [00:00:57] Welcome to Titans of Nuclear. Today, I'm here with Myrto Tripathi, who is the President and Founder of Voices of Nuclear. Welcome. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:01:06] Thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure and a great honor because, Titans of Nuclear... I've been there for a long time. It's a little bit humbling to be invited to a podcast that's called Titans of Nuclear. I'm not sure I feel like a titan quite yet, but hopefully one day. 

Sarah Howorth [00:01:25] Well, we certainly think you are and it's a pleasure to have you on. Let's go ahead and just get started by talking about your background and how you ended up in nuclear. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:01:36] That's a good question and generally rather long story, but I'll try to make it short. When I left school, I very much wanted to change the world and every single piece and bits of it, but couldn't decide if I had to start with the pandas, the hunger, the wars, the sanitations, the gender equality or whatnot. There were way too many issues, so little time. I early on decided that energy was probably the root cause and the root enabler, the greatest enabler, for all of those causes at the same time. And if I could manage to bring energy to people, then not only would they be enabled to achieve all those things, but also they would be enabled to make their own choices without me having to direct what they were doing or not doing. Hence, my first orientation towards energy. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:02:33] Naturally, I found my way to nuclear energy because I'm French and the nuclear energy sector was something pretty important and exciting. Still at the time... I'm talking very early 2000s here, even if the atmosphere, the public opinion around it was not so good. Still then. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:03:01] I worked for 10 years for Areva, the front end of the fuel sample, mining, chemistry enrichment, then fuel manufacturing and design. I was Market Strategy Director for Worldwide Areva, which is now Framatome. And then, I ended my career in 2014 in charge of conducting the negotiating teams for selling the third-generation nuclear power plant, the EPR. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:03:35] And so, I was a salesperson, so to speak, a pretty strategic one, but still a salesperson, until I realized that as an engineer and as a business developer, my role was not so important and not so useful because everything depended on public acceptance. The political decision, the financing, the startup of the projects, everything. And if you didn't have public acceptance, then you didn't have projects. And you could be as smart and dedicated and engaged as you wanted, those power plants would never see the light and you would never bring energy to people while ensuring their environment was preserved and the climate was stabilized. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:04:22] So that's when I left Areva, just prior to the Paris Agreement and the COP 21 and joined the UN Global Compact to mobilize industry, business around the climate negotiations to try to make sure that the solution providers would be part of the organization. I worked for the climate negotiations for three to four years. Then was very, very disappointed by what I found there. I apologize, and I'm sorry to say that. Because I essentially met a lot of people who were really enthusiastic and were doing really great work, but were little interested, or little did they realize that the technologies they were advocating for didn't always work, or not quite yet. And they had a pretty dogmatic approach to all these things. And in particular, nuclear was a complete taboo. Completely absent from anything environmental, climate-related. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:05:29] And it threw me off entirely. I was pretty desperate. It's one I touched for myself, what we now call the famous generation despair toward climate change. I went through that myself for a short period. But I guess that's a question of character. It didn't last very long, and I decided to take it upon myself to start an NGO, a particular NGO to back nuclear and the civil society into the conversation. And making sure... And that was my first mandate... That the contribution of nuclear was clearly and largely recognized as a key contributor to the energy transition worldwide. And I'm happy today because I think I'm at the end of a first season, that mandate, because it's achieved. And what we see today is I think we can say it worked. 

Sarah Howorth [00:06:36] That's amazing. It's so interesting. And how did your background, engineering, sales and going through all of this translate finally into Voices of Nuclear? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:06:47] In many ways, I think, because when you are trained in sales, you learn to understand what your counterpart needs. You try to put yourself in the shoes of the people you're talking to and you actually develop communication skills. And a lot of engineers tend to think that communication is just a side or a secondary skill. I'm quite convinced now that it's not. That engineers, technicians, scientists need to stop despising too much these kinds of communication skills, because it depends on how we communicate to people those technologies that they will choose to adopt them or not. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:07:40] So, you can be an engineer and develop the greatest technology in the world, like nuclear in my mind is, and then it's being rejected, not used and left aside. And what's the point? So technology, it's nothing else but science applied, made and put to work. But then, we need all that effort of convincing and communicating which we put to use. So, you want science to be put to use? Let's do those podcasts you do. Let's get that civil society working. Let's get that communication going. So, I think that helped a lot. That was a very important aspect of things. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:08:20] And the engineering part of your question... I think translating into a thirst for rigor and a lot of expertise, even in something that was communication, NGO, and civil society, you can be dancing with a polar bear in the street while providing very sourced numbers, while being very thorough and rigorous in every claim you make. And I think the combination of the two is what made the successes of Voices. 

Sarah Howorth [00:08:54] Right. So, tell me a little bit more about the current work of Voices and what the mission and vision is there. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:09:03] So, the first objective we gave ourselves when we created the Voices back in 2018 was what I mentioned earlier, achieve the recognition of nuclear energy as a key contributor to the energy transition and the fight against climate change. To do that was a lot of changing the conversation, acting on the messenger in addition to the messaging next to populations. Making sure the balance, risk benefits, was clear in the mind of people so that citizens could make their own decisions while having the right facts in their hands. And that includes trusting the citizens with that choice. And when we realize that people actually do make pretty rational decisions once they're being fed with whatever facts, then they are able to balance out their own interests and to make the decision. But you have that trust in them. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:10:06] And so, there's been a lot of pedagogy. There's been a lot of media, street action, influencing political and decision makers and so on to reach the point where we are today. We are realizing now that... I think with the industry and with the public opinion, we've managed that. We're pretty happy and we consider it a great success and that the job has been done. And now we're embarking on a new journey, hopefully, what I call Season Two of the Voice of Nuclear, which is now to help the projects gain of ground. Because now nuclear is on paper, most of it, and it's strong enough to make sure that those plants start producing that famous low-carbon energy we've been talking about so much. 

Sarah Howorth [00:11:00] Right, absolutely. I picked up a pamphlet from your area earlier today and I was wondering what an energy transition scenario is. I was reading about those in it. And I'm wondering what is the Voices scenario and how is it different? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:11:19] Oh, well, thank you very much for this question. We have indeed produced, in-house... So, I need to remind here that we're only volunteers. So, that's quite a huge effort coming from us. We produced an energy scenario for France, 2050, based on the realization that all the scenarios that were up for debate prior to new decision making at the French and European level on energy mix in our minds were flawed. Were deeply flawed because they were relying on hypotheses that were way too risky and way too wishful thinking for us. And as citizens, what we wanted was to make sure that the energy transition would see the light. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:12:11] And we've seen a lot of relying on innovative technologies that were not very mature, not industrialized. There were no supply chains associated to it. Natural resources consumption.... Of the charts, as if everyone would have more than 100% granted of those resources for their own use while there was a lot of competing uses actually in place. They were relying on levels of sobriety for the populations that are nowhere to be seen when we look around us. They were relying on potential relationships and collaborations between countries in a geopolitical future, close and far, that again, were not so clear. And so, we thought all those were a lot of uncertainties. And we thought that those scenarios would not actually reflect what would be a credible future. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:13:19] So, we made a scenario where first we decided that it would not be a question of more renewables or more nuclear. It would be a question of taking all the low-carbon energies and using them exactly to what they know how to do. You don't sleep on a stool and you don't sit on a bed, but those are different devices for you to rest. So, same thing with the energies. They don't have the same impact on the grid. They don't provide the same services. So, we need to put them exactly where they need to be. We need to have all low-carbon sources. That means nuclear, but that also means hydroelectricity, pump and storage, solar, wind, geothermal. And we need to use them side by side to what they know how to do best. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:14:09] All those were hypotheses that we took, saying we want mature technologies, we want realistic hypotheses and then we will see if it passes or not. Do we manage to succeed? And we do; we do. The very good news is that we made what we call the "no bullshit scenario." Sorry, for my French. And we did the most pessimistic scenario we could imagine and decided we would put progress before innovation. Innovation is great; progress is better. And we would see if we would actually succeed in reaching net zero while providing energy to people. And we do. So, it's a very optimistic result to a pessimistic scenario. 

Sarah Howorth [00:14:59] That's amazing. And let's talk a little bit more too about how Voices communicates with the public. Earlier you mentioned a polar bear dancing in the streets, and if people are familiar with you already, they might know what that means. But what's the symbolism there for people who don't? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:15:17] Well, the polar bear, first, was an idea that did not come from the Voices originally. The pro-nuclear community is a small one, but very diverse and dispersed worldwide. Eric Meyer, who is the head of Generation Atomic that you may know came up first with that idea which we thought was brilliant. And we love good ideas and we love to put our friends forward, so this is why we used it and reused it again. Because it's a great way to communicate to populations that did not associate, nuclear with climate and with the environment that we reclaim those symbols. That the youth can be pro and imagined this to be an old technology because it has very concrete and very clear benefits for its future. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:16:20] And we need to consider that whatever works and actually provided results that we can measure, that we can see, that we can enjoy, is something that we need to push forward and continue. Because nuclear energy is not a technology, it's physics. And you can do millions of things with physics and it can take you forward forever. It's a very enthusiastic way of seeing things. So, using those symbols that mean already a lot to people and explaining to them why it makes sense, why those symbols are naturally also ours, is a great and actually an easy way to get the conversation started. 

Sarah Howorth [00:17:09] Right. That's a great point and a great way to describe it. And some other really interesting things that you all have here is a sticker, for those who are watching on video. It says that "Nuclear is dangerous for fossil fuels." Can you explain that a little bit more as well? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:17:29] So, that's how we try to do things at the Voices, which is to take very simple and straightforward formulations to explain some very rigorous concepts behind it. And the one behind this one is to say that today there is no other form of energy than nuclear that's capable of displacing fossil fuels anywhere at all times. If you take the set of criteria of having low-carbon, small environmental footprint, always available, anywhere geographically energy on the planet, only nuclear answers that set of criteria. And the other energies that answer that set of criteria, but they are very high carbon content, are fossils. So, you cannot degrade, or you will have the hardest time to create the level of service you provide humanity. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:18:43] I mean, humanity has enjoyed a certain level of service thanks to the energy the Industrial Revolution has been able to provide it. And we discovered living long lives, enjoyable lives with leisure, with cultural and intellectual pleasures, with time on our hands to enjoy our children and to raise them and so on, etc., etc. Not go hungry, not be sick... I mean, all of those are very important things, right? So, we're not going to degrade the level of service. And if you don't replace the service of the fossil fuels with rendering humanity by something at least equivalent and why not even better, you're just not going to do it. People are just not going to run with it. And considering we also like all democracies and we also like what the kinds of systems we've achieved and are always making demonstrations that we can take us even further, we have to understand... 

Myrto Tripathi [00:19:48] And I know it's a little bland and I know have been called out a little bit before because of this, but I'm pretty convinced that the path forward is what I call the nuclear scene. Where fossil is essentially going to be replaced by nuclear and the proportion of the world's energy mix will remain with renewables maintaining 20% of the total. And in renewables, of course, that includes hydroelectricity, which is a very important renewable energy. And I exclude biomass, please, because I only want the low-carbon ones. And all the fossils are going to be replaced by some generation, some technology that's nuclear-based. So, I am a nuclear scene advocate because I think that's where the physics of it takes us. 

Sarah Howorth [00:20:49] Yeah, I love that. And as we begin to wrap up, I want to ask you what your vision personally or maybe Voices of Nuclear sees for the nuclear industry 10, 20, or 30 years down the line. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:21:09] That's a good question. Well, I express myself for myself, but maybe also a little bit for the Voices of Nuclear because it draws on the principles we would like to put forward up to now and hopefully in the future. The nuclear industry will have a bright future. There's almost no way around it. It's needed; it's required. There are actually little alternatives. And the fact that there are little alternatives is not bad news, it's a good one, because it's a good technology. It's a good technology with lots of benefits and manageable risks. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:21:47] Now, what I would be more worried about is maybe the next five or ten years. Why? Because the situation towards the world's public opinion, the decision makers, the level of understanding and familiarity of the populations with nuclear is still very fresh. It's still very unstable and fragile. We need to consolidate that a lot and it is going to take time. And I wouldn't want the nuclear industry to become too confident too quick and to start making the mistakes that some other technologies have made to just ride, surfing the waves... That's an expression we have in French. I don't know if you have it in English as well. 

Sarah Howorth [00:22:46] Yeah, it translated.

Myrto Tripathi [00:22:50] Okay. And you enjoy the hype, right? And then, you maybe start making claims that are a little bit too forward and then take the risk of losing the hard-won credibility that nuclear enjoys today. So, coming from people like myself as a volunteer full time, which is a very, very important effort... I've been working for nuclear to regain that credibility, for the industry to regain that credibility and not to be discarded as a non-player. I am asking the nuclear industry to take its responsibility now and to just not forget too quick and run too fast. It is a bright future out there, so no need to be over-optimistic in what we're saying. I think we can just tell the truth. We can be reasonable and cautious because that's already very positive, much better than anything anyone else can propose. And it's already a very, very good value proposition. So, no need to overdo it. Just be who you are. Do what you know how to do, do it well, and it can only go very well. 

Sarah Howorth [00:24:18] That's a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Myrto, for your time and for coming on Titans of Nuclear today.

Myrto Tripathi [00:24:23] Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me. It was a great time. And it's a great setting and situation to have that conversation. Because, yeah, I think we actually did it. So, well done, all of us. 

Sarah Howorth [00:24:39] Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:24:41] Thank you.

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