TITANS OF NUCLEAR

This transcript is pending.

This transcript is pending.

Sarah Howorth [00:00:59] Welcome back to another episode of Titans of Nuclear. I'm Sarah, and today I'm joined by Will Shackel, the founder of Nuclear for Australia. Will's a part of our series highlighting young, influential leaders in the nuclear industry. Will, welcome. 

Will Shackel [00:01:15] Thank you very much for having me on today, Sarah. 

Sarah Howorth [00:01:18] Yeah, it's great to have you. So, I want to start off by just getting to know you before we talk about all the great work that you've been doing lately. So, tell us about yourself. Did you grow up in Australia? 

Will Shackel [00:01:30] Yes, I did grow up in Australia. So, I'm Will Shackel. I'm a 17 year old from a little-known Australian city called Brisbane, which is in Queensland for anyone who's familiar with it. I've actually had an interesting experience. I was born in Sydney, Australia, which people are probably a bit more familiar with. I lived in Chicago for a few years in the United States and then came back to Sydney before finally ending up in Brisbane. And recently, I've become interested in the issue of nuclear energy as the Australian Government has a deeply-rooted opposition to nuclear energy. And as a result of that, I decided to start Australia's first youth-led campaign for the ban on nuclear energy to be lifted called Nuclear for Australia. 

Sarah Howorth [00:02:20] So, you mentioned you're still in school. Did you learn anything at all about nuclear through school, or has this always just been a passion project on the side? 

Will Shackel [00:02:32] Well, I guess when your country has a ban on nuclear energy, it's very unlikely you're going to hear anything about it in the education system, and that's certainly my experience. I'm a Year 11 student, and there have been very few, if any, mentions of nuclear energy. And there's certainly nothing about nuclear energy currently in the curriculum, which I think's a real shame, especially when as a country we're looking at being increasingly involved in the nuclear industry. 

Will Shackel [00:03:03] And whilst we still have that ban on nuclear power, you look at things like Orcas, the nuclear submarines. We need to make sure that Australian children, Australian students, are educated in nuclear science and aware that the industry even exists and what nuclear energy is if we want to have those skills for the future which will be required for those submarines, and also, if one day the ban on nuclear energy was to be lifted. So look, then you probably get to the question of how did I even hear about nuclear energy and why did I become interested? 

Sarah Howorth [00:03:38] Yeah, exactly. 

Will Shackel [00:03:41] So, I didn't get that at school. I guess with Google and the internet you get access to a lot more information these days. And I guess just by chance, I came across nuclear energy on the internet. I saw some of Michael Shellenberger's talks. Clearly, he had a lot of traction in this and I decided to investigate it a bit further. 

Will Shackel [00:04:04] I did an assignment on it in Year 6, read some articles about it, thought it was interesting, and was simply very, very confused why Australia would oppose, from my perspective, what was almost a perfect solution, a technology that was able to solve both issues, the climate and energy crisis. And I think after that, last year in Grade 10 I did an assignment on it again. And at school holidays I had some time to spare and decided to put that time into starting this campaign. 

Sarah Howorth [00:04:38] Yeah, that's awesome. Tell me a little bit about those assignments or maybe even the piece of research that really turns that light on in your brain where you realized you wanted to learn a lot more about this. 

Will Shackel [00:04:53] It's very hard to pinpoint where that happened; it was always random for me. What I would say is I was particularly intrigued about the debate we're having in Australia about the cost of nuclear energy. And there's a certain report... It's called the GenCost Report. And I came across that in this assignment I did in Year 10, which was an assignment for commerce. I could not find a definitive answer on whether nuclear energy is indeed the most expensive form of energy. 

Will Shackel [00:05:26] And I was simply baffled that was the excuse that Australia had for having a ban on the technology and not even considering it, especially when there are so many countries around the world that for decades have invested in and supported nuclear energy, and I just didn't get why the situation was different in Australia. So without having that definitive conclusion and information, I guess it sparked my curiosity and was sort of a catalyst for the inquiry and investigation I am now doing. 

Sarah Howorth [00:06:03] And do you have any mentors, friends, or family members who are interested in the same thing that you can bounce ideas off of and learn more from? 

Will Shackel [00:06:15] Well, in terms of family, contrary to what many people will say on Twitter, my parents are not members of the nuclear energy industry, and I don't know why people instantly assume that. They've got nothing to do with nuclear energy. I'm not sure why they would given that they, like me, live in Australia. But in terms of mentors, I've been very fortunate. I quite early on... And you would see this over my social media accounts Nuclear for Australia. To form my stance... And this was during those school holidays where I had that time to burn when I was starting up this campaign... I reached out to people across the world, experts who are really respected in this field and just asked them lots of questions about nuclear energy. 

Will Shackel [00:07:02] And I tried to get different perspectives on it to form my opinions, because clearly, as a 17 year old, it is a bit inaccessible as an issue especially when there's not much information. So, I reached out to lots of people and over time, I've accumulated lots of connections especially with experts around the world. And they've been able to really support what I'm doing, and I'm really fortunate to be in a group of people in Australia who support nuclear energy, a series of experts. But unfortunately, their voices get ignored in the public a lot of the time. But I've been able to have their support. They've supported me, provided me the information that they often don't get to share. And I've had the real privilege of giving a platform to that information that they share with me. So, I'm very lucky in that regard about the people who have been so willing and generous in mentoring me and supporting me on my nuclear journey. 

Sarah Howorth [00:08:00] Yeah, that's awesome. And before we talk a little bit more about all of these platforms that you're active on, let's back it up and talk some more about how you started founding Nuclear for Australia. How did that all come together? How did you decide on the branding and what it was all going to be about and all that good stuff? 

Will Shackel [00:08:24] I think it's probably quite obvious. It's all a bit random. I don't think there was much intention behind it and I was just going off my gut at that point. And that's probably why at the start I didn't execute stuff very well. I was using, basically, just Canva. My whole campaign was based on Canva, which is actually an Australian company, by the way, and just regurgitating information, sharing it with people. I guess in terms of the branding it's quite obvious for me, nuclear was green, therefore my branding must be green. That's what I thought was a spark of brilliance. I think it's sort of worked, that implicit connotation that I can build through that. But I would say, I'm not receiving that much professional support, so I've had to navigate this on my own and use my own intuition to work out what's best. 

Will Shackel [00:09:25] I think it started on Instagram. I did a few posts and some videos using some school equipment I had. They started to get traction. I DMed a prominent journalist in Australia saying, "Could I have an interview on your program?" He said, "Yes." And from there, I guess this has all happened as a result. I guess I've been very fortunate that I had that initial supporter who was able to give me that platform to share with people my passion for nuclear energy so they became aware of my campaign and the petition and all the work that I'm doing. And now I guess it's just grown. Over time, I've had more and more support to help navigate these decisions. So now, I'm probably in a much better position, I would say. 

Sarah Howorth [00:10:23] Yeah, it's really interesting that you've been learning by doing for the most part. And as a young founder, what has been your guiding lesson or way of thinking so far? 

Will Shackel [00:10:39] That's a very difficult question, actually. I would probably just say that in terms of the decisions I make, to just be confident, be confident in them. Because I think it's really easy as a young person, especially when you're up against an issue that the Government of Australia vehemently opposes, it can honestly be quite scary and intimidating taking a stance on it. I've really popped in on social media by coming out in support of nuclear energy and I've had to make sacrifices, but I think for me, what's really guided how I've done things is just having confidence in myself, reminding myself that people do support me and that people are behind me. They might not express it publicly, but that I do have backers and support. And I think that's really provided me the confidence to do what I do on social media. 

Will Shackel [00:11:49] Even with filming videos for social media, that is not something I would think I'd be doing, filming myself a year ago. Because it's quite intimidating, at least for me. I don't like the idea of filming myself. It seems a bit obnoxious, I think, until you do it and you realize, "Well, I guess it's not really that bad." The net benefit of it is probably much greater than any embarrassment you might feel standing in public with the phone in front of you. That's the other thing that's been interesting that I've experienced. 

Sarah Howorth [00:12:29] Yeah. So, let's talk a little bit more about all of your work on social media. You're on a lot of platforms. Tell us a bit about where we can find you and what you feel right now is your most powerful platform where you're getting the most traction and having the most productive conversations around nuclear. 

Will Shackel [00:12:49] So, I'm pretty much on every social media platform. Nuclear for Australia has an account on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. They all have, I would say, different audiences. So, I cater different content to different audiences knowing that there are different age demographics. Different people have different politics depending on each platform, which has been something that I think is really interesting to navigate. 

Will Shackel [00:13:24] What I would say in terms of the most successful one... I think it's interesting. In terms of converting to petition signatures, which is my current incentive at the moment... Because I run a petition at nuclearforaustralia.com/petition to legalize nuclear energy... It's probably Twitter, or X as it's now known, because you can integrate the links into it. But it's actually been quite surprising that with TikTok, I've been able to achieve the greatest reach. 

Will Shackel [00:13:56] And I think it's interesting because that's a platform with a predominantly young audience. And I think the message that I convey, what I would hope is a really pragmatic and commonsense message, clearly it's resonating. And I've had great traction on TikTok. Quite a few of those videos have gotten in excess of 10,000 views. One of them, I think, has over 130,000 views, and that's just simply unheard of for me. It was really interesting because that video was about the impact that wind turbines have on the natural environment. 

Will Shackel [00:14:37] For a lot of people outside of Australia, they might think, "Oh well, Australia's got one of the greatest land masses and the your density of people to land, the ratio or whatever must be so incredibly low that it doesn't impact you." But I think that's been something really interesting to witness in the nuclear debate. And I don't oppose renewables; my message is that we should keep all options on the table. But the message that nuclear is incredibly energy dense and doesn't require the same land footprint is really powerful in Australia when you consider the impacts that energy developments have on agricultural land, forests, precious natural land, and indigenous communities. And I think that's something that I've been able to capitalize on and it resonated in that video which had in excess of 100,000 views. 

Sarah Howorth [00:15:38] Yeah, and now that we're talking a little bit more about your nuclear knowledge, let's get into some of your messaging also behind nuclear and start off with a big question. Why does Australia need to lift the ban on nuclear energy? 

Will Shackel [00:15:58] There are quite a few things I could say about this because I just don't think that Australia's nuclear energy ban makes any sense. The first thing I would say is nuclear energy positions itself as a near-perfect solution for Australia. Unlike the fossil fuels Australia currently relies on, nuclear energy is clean, it has the lowest greenhouse gas emissions of any energy source, and it is safe. It's the second-safest form of energy generation. And unlike renewables, nuclear energy is reliable. It has the highest capacity factor of any energy source. And really importantly, it's proven. Nuclear energy has been able to successfully transition countries such as France to a low-carbon grid, and that's something that renewables have not been able to do except if you consider hydro. 

Will Shackel [00:16:54] And that's something that's really important for Australia because my generation should not be taking on the risk of a renewables-centric plan failing, because that could be catastrophic. Not only in terms of the impacts of the energy crisis and how that would exacerbate that with the lights going out, but also the climate crisis which clearly has quite profound impacts on Australia. You look at bushfires and all of these other natural disasters which Australians have had to become all too familiar with. But I think the main thing with Australia's nuclear energy plan is it just does not make any sense. And there are so many contradictions in Australian government policy, it's not even funny. 

Will Shackel [00:17:40] For instance, Australia has a nuclear reactor already. It's at Lucas Heights. It's a research reactor 30 kilometers from the Sydney CBD. So when people say, "Oh, nuclear energy's not safe. Australia won't be able to manage the waste," well, we already do successfully manage a nuclear reactor. And we're renowned around the world for being able to do that with our nuclear expertise. We've got 400 people with Ph.D.s managing that reactor; it's simply incredible. Australia's at the cutting edge of many solutions, in particular for managing nuclear waste. 

Will Shackel [00:18:17] Then there's the issue of Orcas. And for people who are unfamiliar with that, it's really important for Australia. The government is investing, I think, in excess of $300 billion AUD into that for our nuclear submarines. There is a huge contradiction that the government is willing to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in floating nuclear reactors and they're perfectly legal, but land-based nuclear reactors are completely illegal and something that the government has a problem with. That just simply makes no sense. 

Will Shackel [00:18:53] And you also have to think about it from a waste aspect. Apparently, one of the government's issues is with high-level waste. Well, in signing up to the nuclear submarine program, the Orcas, they've confirmed that they're going to have to manage the high-level waste here in Australia. So, they're fine with the waste from floating nuclear reactors in the submarines. Why aren't they fine with the same waste, albeit there are some differences, from land-based nuclear reactors? It goes on and goes on. 

Will Shackel [00:19:24] The last thing I would say that just makes no sense to me... And this came up in a response to a letter I wrote our Prime Minister. And this was, admittedly, from a department official. But in that letter, the government said that they serve to reiterate the role that nuclear energy can play globally in the net zero transformation. So, if it's right for the rest of the world and they recognize the ability it has to transition countries to net zero around the world, why isn't it right in Australia? And why would you put a ban on it is my question? And it's something the government has not been able to answer to date. 

Sarah Howorth [00:20:03] Yeah, it sounds like there are a lot of contradictions in what you've talked about so far. How did this ban originally even come about? 

Will Shackel [00:20:13] Well, Australia's nuclear energy ban was never a good piece of policy. Literally, it was debated for 10 minutes in the late 1990s in the Australian Parliament. And it was basically a political tradeoff or compromise for a tax policy called the goods and services tax in Australia. So, it was never a good piece of policy. Unfortunately, it was supported by the government of the day because it was a political compromise. But I think that context is really important. The ban was never good policy. My generation certainly never had a say on it. Australians have never had a say on it, but we've been locked out of a technology that could potentially really benefit us. And I agree with many when they say it's anti-democratic to rule out a technology like that when we should be having all options on the table in addressing the climate and energy crisis. I think that's really important. 

Sarah Howorth [00:21:21] Yeah, and we've touched on these contradictions. There are also a lot of misconceptions about nuclear that you've touched on a little bit so far as well. When you were originally starting to learn about nuclear, did you have a misconception that you had to overcome? Or if not and you were starting with a clean slate, what's the most popular one that you often talk about with people? 

Will Shackel [00:21:44] I think I started off with a clean slate. I hadn't been exposed to the misinformation that many past generations, all the generations to mine, have been. And I think that's a general trait of young Australians. Because they received no education in the education system about nuclear, because they don't hear about it to the same extent in pop culture, we're relatively new to it. 

Will Shackel [00:22:07] The thing that I've had to spend a lot of time getting people's heads around is the issue of nuclear waste because everyone sees it as a major issue. But what about the waste? It's not an issue? Chris Keefer... He's in Australia actually as we speak... He said in an interview, "If anything, in terms of waste, it's actually a benefit of nuclear energy because nuclear energy is the only form of energy which is able to manage its waste."

Will Shackel [00:22:41] You look at fossil fuels, which Australia predominately uses in our grid today... People need to consider where does the waste from that go? Well, it ends up permanently in our atmosphere and we in Australia breathe it in every single day. And that has consequences. People unfortunately die from that due to respiratory issues. That's some waste that does not seem to be a type of waste that we're going to be able to manage. Even the waste from renewables, that ends up in landfill. That's incredibly damaging. There are predictions of just the sheer volume of that which we'll end up with in the future. 

Will Shackel [00:23:19] And you look at a solution like nuclear energy which is able to safely contain that waste and has an incredibly small volume of waste which is able to be reprocessed. I think that's really important to share with the Australian public. But unfortunately, it's very difficult to convey when you've got huge lobby groups which pump out this really emotional... I'd even describe it as propaganda. It is completely non-factual and it's really, I would say, difficult to get get through that and to convince people. But the thing I would just say is research it yourself. If you don't believe me... And I don't expect anyone to believe me as a 17 year old. Just do your own research. Have a look at images of nuclear waste. Have a look at images of pregnant women hugging the canisters of nuclear waste or the videos of jet planes... That's another example. 

Will Shackel [00:24:17] Or in Britain, how they would slam trains into the nuclear waste barrels. Have a look at yourself and then make up your mind. Don't just listen to the propaganda and misinformation you've been fed. I think that's it's very difficult to convey that to Australians when they've been told to fear nuclear waste, whether it's from things like The Simpsons. But certainly something that I hope I'm able to communicate. I probably need a bit more practice on it to make it more concise because I have a tendency overtalk, but I think it's a big issue that we need to overcome here in Australia. 

Sarah Howorth [00:25:02] Yeah, and you're obviously very passionate about this and you've learned so much so far. Have you ever had a conversation with someone who was against nuclear and you were able to talk them through it and maybe change their mind a bit? 

Will Shackel [00:25:18] Well, there have been a few instances, I would say, where that's happened. It's even interesting... And people would be able to say this on my social media, but I was on a national program on our public broadcaster, the ABC, called Q+A. And it's basically a panel discussion show where they get a series of panelists to answer questions from the audience. 

Will Shackel [00:25:44] We had about 10 minutes on this news special where I was answering a question and we were all debating as panelists the potential of nuclear energy. And it was interesting to hear after that, people had verbally exclaimed when I was speaking that somehow I convinced them to support nuclear energy when they didn't support it going into that episode. And I think that's so interesting that just after a few minutes of speaking and sharing facts which they probably never heard, I was able to convince them. I was quite astounded that there were people in that audience who just from that were willing to support nuclear energy. And there were certainly a few discussions I've had with people at school where they've come onboard with it. 

Will Shackel [00:26:39] I think it's particularly interesting at school because I do debating and stuff and I have, I'd say in theory, a very diverse group of friends in terms of their beliefs and values. But I've received very little pushback for supporting nuclear energy because I think they see what I do and they follow my stuff on social media. It's very hard to refute the evidence because the evidence is overwhelming that nuclear energy is beneficial. And in that respect, I think the broad assessment I would make is people can see what I'm doing. I'm not misrepresenting anything; I just provide facts. And for that reason, I've had very little pushback. Very few people that I've actually had to convince because they can make their own mind up based on the content that I provide, which they inevitably do see. 

Sarah Howorth [00:27:36] Yeah, absolutely. And especially young people, like you mentioned before, having this clean slate, not having learned about nuclear in school. How do you think that's going to affect the nuclear landscape when all these young people grow up and they're the people in charge? 

Will Shackel [00:27:52] I think it's really unfortunate that in the education system in Australia you're not allowed to discuss nuclear energy. I think that will have to change due to Orcas because clearly we're going to need a lot of skilled young people to be able to take up the roles to serve in our nuclear submarines and to service them. So, hopefully that will change to an extent. But I think it's really hard to have any action on nuclear energy when your government's not even willing to educate their citizens about it. That's a huge problem that we've got. And hopefully through my campaign, I'm sort of able to fill a bit of a void by providing young Australians those facts and that information. And my hope is that it reaches them and that I have enough of a reach to be able to compensate for that deficit currently in the education system. 

Sarah Howorth [00:28:56] And for people who maybe stumbled upon this interview and now they're looking to learn more, where can they tune into things like Q+A? They know where they can find you on social media, but what else can they expect to see from you in the near future? 

Will Shackel [00:29:13] I would probably direct them to my website, nuclearforaustralia.com where they can also sign my petition to legalize nuclear energy at nuclearforaustralia.com/petition. Once they sign the petition, they can sign up for email updates where I'll keep them updated on what I and other young people working in this organization are up to and the progress we've made. 

Will Shackel [00:29:39] In terms of from here what I'm doing, there are a few things. I'm properly trying to establish this campaign because I really want to be able to share this information about nuclear energy and the facts with as many Australians as possible. And I'll be doing that through that website and with the support, hopefully, of the people. 

Will Shackel [00:30:01] Also, I'm on another episode of Q+A which would have just occurred before this recording was aired where I'll be debating the Energy Minister. I'd encourage people to watch that because it will be my chance to pose my questions and to pose what I think is the other side of the story to him and to see his response. So to watch that, people will be able to surely go on our social media where I'll make sure to share that. 

Will Shackel [00:30:37] And the other thing, at the end of the year I'm making plans to attend COP 28 in Dubai. I think it's really important that the nuclear movement in Australia has a presence to show the world that not everyone in Australia agrees with the current path the government is taking, and that Australians believe that we should be really open to nuclear energy and have all options on the table. 

Will Shackel [00:31:07] If you may, just give me some time because Australians do support nuclear energy. Poll after poll... And remember, that's the only evidence we have in Australia because Australians never voted for the ban on nuclear energy. Poll after poll after poll shows that Australians support nuclear energy. In fact, according to one in May this year, 70% of Australians want nuclear energy in order to reach our emissions and energy security targets, and only 18% of Australians identify as anti-nuclear. So based on those statistics alone, surely it's undemocratic to maintain a ban on the technology when so many Australians not only support the ban being lifted but actually want nuclear reactors built in this country, which is also quite astounding given the political climate. So, I'll hopefully be capitalizing on that support when bringing people around me. There will be many more young people also coming onboard to support me and what I'm doing. And hopefully, hopefully we can see the ban on nuclear energy being lifted in Australia and maybe one day seeing a pathway for a civil nuclear power reactor being built in this country. 

Sarah Howorth [00:32:28] Absolutely. And other than signing your petition, how can people get behind what you're doing? 

Will Shackel [00:32:36] Well, at the time that this episode is launched, they should also be able to donate to my campaign, Nuclear for Australia. And that will help me share information with more Australians, which is really important. Because like I said early in this interview, once Australians hear the facts... And there are so few facts currently in this debate... They're much more likely to support nuclear energy. And if the government sees that Australians support nuclear energy and Australians are really powerful and vocal in that support for nuclear, then hopefully we can see some change on that issue.

Sarah Howorth [00:33:40] That's incredible. And is there anything else that we haven't talked about yet that we should before we finally wrap up? 

Will Shackel [00:33:48] I don't think so. Unless you have any more questions. 

Sarah Howorth [00:33:52] Let's just leave the listeners with one more message before we go ahead and sign off. Anything you want to say to people that have known about nuclear for a long time or maybe a listener who's just starting to learn now? 

Will Shackel [00:34:08] I would say that we need to have all options on the table, globally, in our energy transition. And you shouldn't just rule out a solution due to your ideological position or what you've been told to think by people. We should have all options on the table. I think the thing is you shouldn't get focused on one path. 

Will Shackel [00:34:33] The other thing is, if you support renewables, that doesn't mean that you need to oppose nuclear. And likewise, if you support nuclear, as a result of that you don't need to oppose renewables. There should be a really pragmatic, holistic view to this energy transition. We shouldn't get pointed in on certain ideas and ways of doing things. I think we need to have all options on the table and really pragmatically approach what is a huge issue for the globe as we transition to net zero. 

Sarah Howorth [00:35:14] Awesome. That's a great way to end it. Will, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was great to have you and can't wait to see what you do in the future. 

Will Shackel [00:35:23] Thank you very much for having me on, Sarah.

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This transcript is pending

Phoebe Lind [00:00:58] Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Titans of Nuclear. I'm Phoebe Lind, and today I am joined by Kaylee Cunningham, a Ph.D. student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who you may also know by her alias on TikTok as Ms. Nuclear Energy. Kaylee is a part of our newest series highlighting young and influential leaders in the nuclear energy industry. Kaylee, welcome to Titan of Nuclear.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:01:22] Thank you so much for having me, Phoebe. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here. I'm actually a huge fan of the podcast.

Phoebe Lind [00:01:29] Actually? I mean, doesn't everybody love the show?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:01:32] Yeah, honestly, I'm pretty sure everyone does.

Phoebe Lind [00:01:36] But yeah, I would love to have you introduce yourself a little bit and give a little bit of your background. We'll dive into it more in depth throughout the episode, but go ahead. The floor is yours.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:01:46] So as Phoebe mentioned, my name is Kaylee Cunningham. I am a rising or soon to be second year Ph.D. student at MIT. I am studying nuclear engineering and my concentration or field of specialization, as we call it, is in material science. So specifically, I look at how different materials change as a result of being exposed to radiation. And I did my undergrad at the University of Florida. So, go Gators. Subtle shout out there, or maybe not so subtle. And I love TikTok, I love social media and advocacy, and I'm just excited to be here.

Phoebe Lind [00:02:28] Amazing, we're excited to have you. So, tell us a little bit more about your background. University of Florida, I know you have a research reactor there. Where did you grow up? How did you come into nuclear energy and nuclear in general?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:02:44] I actually am from the Massachusetts area originally. I lived in Melrose until I was about 11 when I moved to North Carolina. I lived there for about three years and then I moved to Florida. I did high school there and then went to the University of Florida for undergrad.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:03:03] When I was in high school, I always have to bring up my engineering teacher, Ms. Nimmi Arunachalam. She was my inspiration; I honestly would not be the woman that I am today had I not had her as a teacher. She encouraged me to join my school's engineering academy. It was sort of a magnet school with these different programs and different tracks. I actually started off in the Fashion and Design Academy. And I was super interested in musical theater and trying to pursue that, but I also loved calc and physics. So, I had a couple of friends bring me to go meet Ms. Nimmi, and ever since then I was just in love and I knew engineering was the career for me.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:03:53] And I feel like a lot of students are in that position, especially this time of year, right? We're getting into the start of college. Freshmen are coming in trying to decide what they want to major in, and a lot of people have a general sense of, "Okay, STEM? Not STEM?" kind of thing. But one of the most crucial moments for me when selecting the nuclear industry was a competition I did in high school. My friends cringe when I bring it up because I talked about it way too often when I was younger, but I was involved in the Florida Student Astronaut Challenge.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:04:29] It was a competition where me and a group of friends ended up volunteering our time after school every day until like five or six p.m. studying things about aerospace and the space shuttle. We would go to this competition at Kennedy Space Center. First we would go through a space shuttle simulator, like flying the space shuttle and going on a mission and all of that stuff. But then we had an engineering challenge and a lab research space challenge, which I now look back and realize that was basically a qualifying exam for a Ph.D. I willingly put myself through that and now I'm like, "What was wrong with me?" But it was just such an incredible experience.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:05:17] And the first year I did it, my sophomore year of high school, the seniors on my team picked the project and for this lab research experiment proposal, it was focused on figuring out a way to protect astronauts and keep them safe for a NASA mission. And the project the seniors picked was focused on radiation shielding for those astronauts. I mean, this was the first I had heard about radiation or nuclear or anything like that. And I was just so, I want to say, obsessed, borderline obsessed with the topic and this idea that radiation is something that can be so hazardous. But at the same time, here on Earth it's something we use for clean carbon-free energy. It just blew my mind, the juxtaposition, and that's what sucked me in. And ever since then, I have been diehard on track nuclear.

Phoebe Lind [00:06:19] That's fantastic. I think if I had known about an astronaut program when I was in high school... I'm also from Massachusetts, and I was not aware of any astronaut programs there. So, that sounds like a great opportunity. Also, going back to your points about having strong mentors and opportunities at a young age, it's so important to getting that kind of exposure to new industries that you might not grow up knowing about.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:06:43] Exactly.

Phoebe Lind [00:06:44] So when you went to college in Florida, then you were absolutely certain you wanted to do nuclear engineering from the get go?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:06:52] Yes. It's actually a funny story. I was actually a little undecided between cybersecurity and nuclear engineering because I also loved computer science. Anyone that knew me in high school didn't know me as the nuclear girl; I was the computer science girl.

Phoebe Lind [00:07:14] You could have been Ms. Computer Science instead of Ms. Nuclear Energy, but here we are.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:07:19] Pretty much, but here we are. And how I decided that I was I applied to a bunch of different schools. Some were for cybersecurity programs, some were for nuclear engineering programs. And funnily enough, I had the best financial offer... I got full scholarships to cover my education at the University of Florida, and that was a nuclear program. So, that's what decided it for me. I very much trust that everything happens for a reason and works out the way it's supposed to. And that's exactly what it did, because it was the best decision I ever made, going to the University of Florida.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:08:02] Sometimes I look back because I did apply to MIT for undergrad and I didn't get in. And again, this goes back to all those students out there who are applying or maybe filled out the application, didn't get in and upset, stirring with that disappointment. And I was crushed. I was so obnoxiously obsessed with MIT when I was in high school. My heart was just shattered. But going into the program at the University of Florida, I wouldn't change it for the world even if I got into MIT and could go back and do it again. Because the faculty, the mentors, the friendships and just the experiences I had there overall are things that shaped the person that I am today and really helped me outline and set up my career path so that I can be focused on going to graduate school, using as many resources as I can...

Kaylee Cunningham [00:09:04] Quick shout out to Professor Jim Baciak and Dr. Michele Manuel, who mentored me throughout my years at the University of Florida and got me on track to get into MIT. Then also, shout out to Dr. Jeff Powers, my first Oak Ridge National Lab research mentor, who did literally everything in his power to set me up for success. So, having this team of incredible mentors put me on the path to still go to MIT for graduate school. And here I am.

Phoebe Lind [00:09:38] I notice in one of your recent TikTok videos how you had recommended nuclear engineering, specifically because of smaller class sizes and the access that gives you to not only professors but other people that you can rely on. Did you know that you wanted to go to grad school through undergrad as well? You were kind of on that academic pathway?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:10:02] My freshman year, I had no idea what I was doing. Don't let the Ms. Nuclear persona fool you; I was clueless. I applied to every opportunity that... You know those email blasts that get sent out from the department head to the entire department, all the undergrads like, "Hey, opportunity here. Hey, internship here?" I applied to every single one like a crazy person just because I didn't know what I wanted. And at the end of my freshman year, after I had done a little bit of research that I wasn't totally loving, I had internship offers from Southern Company and Oak Ridge National Laboratory. The Oak Ridge National Laboratory Internship was doing a computational research project for nuclear reactor fuel.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:11:00] At the end of my freshman year, I didn't know anything about nuclear. I couldn't tell you what a nuclear reactor was. But I had the computer science skills, so that's the path that I chose. And it ended up being a more research-based instead of industry-based job. And I absolutely loved what I was doing. And that set me up on the trajectory to work in academia.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:11:26] Now that being said, that doesn't mean going to graduate school and pursuing your Ph.D. means you're isolated from industry. It's actually quite the opposite nowadays. Something that I realized pushing towards these advanced reactors that we were trying to develop and deploy as soon as possible, the Ph.D academia route, that sort of expertise is so crucial to these advanced reactors we are trying to build and deploy as soon as we can. And because of that, I actually interned at BWXT last summer.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:12:06] So for those of you who don't know, BWXT builds and manufactures all the nuclear reactors for the Navy. But they also, about five or six years ago, started an advanced technologies research and development branch. And in this branch, I got the best of both worlds. So I was doing research, but it was pushed at the industry fast pace that I think really feeds me and fills me up, and I just absolutely loved the environment. So, it's incredible to know that if I don't want to go into academia, even with a Ph.D., I can still go work in the fast-paced industry.

Phoebe Lind [00:12:45] Yeah, that's a great point. I think that's a pretty common misconception across all disciplines, not just nuclear engineering as well. Turning to that, tell us a little bit more about your work in your Ph.D. What are you studying right now?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:13:00] So, this is actually a fun discussion. I am in the process of switching projects right now. That's a little flag out there for anybody who's working on something they don't like. You don't have to keep working on it. Of course, give it a shot. I spent a year working on this and decided, "Okay, no, I really don't like this." So, I switched to something that I enjoy more.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:13:26] But for context, I mentioned before that my focus is understanding the materials and the material science behind radionuclides, radioactive materials, or materials that are damaged by radiation. The project I started on was for Commonwealth Fusion Systems. They're funding this research project with MIT. There's this huge push to get a commercialized fusion deployment sometime within the next decade, two decades. I don't know CFS's timeline, but the project that I was focused on was studying the structural materials for fusion reactors.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:14:09] So, trying to understand how, in a fusion reactor, when we have insanely energetic neutrons, way more energetic than your standard fission neutrons that we already kind of understand... These super energetic neutrons are smacking into different materials that are holding this sort of plasma suspension system. So, basically pulling the technical information out of it. All you need to know is we've got really excited neutrons smacking into materials and causing all kinds of problems.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:14:46] So, my job was to figure out how to mitigate those problems and make sure that our materials are strong and structurally safe. And that involves a lot of what they call microscopy work. So, looking at super, super tiny samples, like on the scale of nanometers, microns in size. Nanometers for specific particles or defects we're looking at, which is on the scale of like the size of a human hair. Very, very tiny. Looking at that under a very powerful microscope is just not something that I enjoyed long-term. So more recently, I am in the process of switching to a fission-based project, understanding how what they call particle form fuels work and how the materials behind that work when you have different fuel types within these particle forms.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:15:48] So, backing that up again for those non-technical people listening, I think a it like an M&M cookie. So within this cookie, we've got tons of M&M's, right? Inside an M&M, you've got your chocolate center and then you've got this hard candy shell surrounding it, and then a color coding surrounding it, and then a little M&M stamp. Lots of layers surrounding that chocolate. So if you think of the chocolate as your nuclear fuel, that's where your uranium sits. Then we coat that chocolate with the candy shell, which is going to be different layers of carbon or maybe silicon carbide, different materials to protect that chocolate.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:16:31] And then those little M&M particles go inside the cookie. And that cookie is almost like your matrix is what we call it, where we encompass or encase all these little particles to create what we would refer to as a standard fuel pellet. So instead of just straight uranium dioxide, we've got little tiny particles of uranium coated in a bunch of stuff to make it safer and embedded into a cookie. So, my focus now is looking at and understanding how those different materials work inside the cookie, if that makes sense.

Phoebe Lind [00:17:12] That sounds fantastic. But I've got to be honest, I think what I am more fascinated by is how you were just able to break down that super complex topic with an analogy about an M&M cookie. But also speaking to that point, from what I've seen from your more public work on TikTok is that in addition to being a nuclear engineering student, which is very challenging, you're a fantastic educator in being able to take these topics.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:17:45] Thank you.

Phoebe Lind [00:17:45] Of course. But taking these topics and really making them accessible to a more public audience, that's also something I'm super passionate about. Just because... Especially in the nuclear energy industry, but also extending that further to other environmental issues, climate change, it's really just misinformation and a lack of education that I think what causes a lot of the fear that we have around these newer technologies. So, switching gears a little bit to talk about your more public work on TikTok, what inspired you to start posting videos and creating this educational content?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:18:22] This is actually a fun story. I think it was my senior year of undergrad at the University of Florida when I won a scholarship to go on a short-term study abroad to Iceland. This was like a 10-day quick trip to go study and understand Iceland's geothermal energy and the initiatives that they are taking on and pursuing to decarbonize their entire country by 2030. They have very ambitious goals, but they're actually making huge strides to meet those goals. And part of that is supplementing their geothermal energy with energy alternatives. They are very extensively exploring solar panels, wind power, and even hydrogen power or synthetic fuels for things like their boats, their fishing economy, that sort of thing.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:19:19] And so, being the token nuclear engineer on the trip, I, of course, in all of these lectures and seminars and discussions had to raise my hand and say, 'Have you thought about nuclear energy or small modular reactors?" And the response I got was overwhelmingly negative. One of the first times I asked, the response I got was, quote, "Oh, we don't believe in that. We're a peaceful nation. We don't do that." And I was so surprised. I was like, "Did I misspeak?" But I was just so, so surprised. And I confirmed I did not misspeak. And the emotional buildup from that, being so shocked and frustrated that there still is this stigma behind nuclear energy inspired me to turn to TikTok.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:20:22] This was like the end of the pandemic. TikTok was just starting to become super, super popular. And I was a user, but I was never a content creator. And I was like, "Okay, you know what? Enough is enough. People need to hear about this." So, I made a TikTok and I was using the green screen effect, just me talking about, "This is me in Iceland." I said, "Let's talk about nuclear energy. They said no. What's the deal?" And it did very, very well. I think it got something like 10,000 or 20,000 views. And it was the first video I ever posted.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:20:57] I was so overwhelmed by that response and just so grateful and recognized that there is a very serious need for more educational resources about the nuclear energy industry. And because of that, I started making video replies responding to questions I had in the comments on that video. And those video replies did even better than the first video. It just kind of snowballed from there. And that was two years ago, almost exactly two years ago. And now here I am, Ms. Nuclear Energy.

Phoebe Lind [00:21:39] I can't imagine the roller coaster of emotions that came with that from like the rejection of nuclear energy that you saw in Iceland to the, I'm hoping, more positive response that you received on TikTok. My idea is that being a more public figure talking about a controversial topic, I'm sure you're very used to responding to criticism and explaining away the controversy of some of these issues. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges that you face in overcoming that stigma on your platform?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:22:16] Well, that's a great question. I think one of the most common questions I get or sort of misconceptions or misunderstandings is about the waste. People are still fixated on Homer Simpson and the green glowing slime and Halloween. Just recently, I was at Modeling and Experimentation Validation School... Very wordy, but at the Idaho National Laboratory. We toured the Experimental Breeder-I museum. Those of you who don't know, it's just a fancy nuclear reactor museum, the first nuclear reactor to produce like "X" amount of electricity in the United States. And when we were touring the museum, there was a model fuel bundle from the reactor core on display. And so I said, "Okay, everybody needs to stop what we're doing. I need to make a video."

Kaylee Cunningham [00:23:14] And I had someone film me saying, "This is what nuclear waste looks like. Metal rods, not green blowing slime." And every time I make a video like that, it always gets so much attention and so much traction because people still don't know that we're not talking about slime. Nobody's glowing green. We do have glowing blue Cherenkov radiation during the reactor being pulsed, but we don't see this stigma that's been portrayed on the media. So, that's definitely an obstacle.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:23:52] And of course, I receive my fair share of hate comments and criticisms and everything else. Sometimes people question if I'm actually even a Ph.D. student. "Does she actually go to MIT?" which I promise I do. Go to my website. Go to my research group's website; I'm there. And so, it can be difficult, but I think the most important thing is to keep responding to these genuine questions, because all of that negativity and hate and mistrust stems from fear and hurt.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:24:32] A lot of people have seen these tragic nuclear accidents like Chernobyl, like Fukushima, and are absolutely terrified because they don't understand what happened, why it happened, and are concerned it could happen again. And those are all very valid fears and valid concerns. And so, what I'm trying to do on the platform is to just give them the technical perspective in a way that hopefully they can understand a little bit better and use that to maybe help ease some of the anxiety and mitigate those fears.

Phoebe Lind [00:25:10] That's such a kind way to respond to that. The fact that you have so much empathy for people coming from all different perspectives I think is so incredible. In the face of some of those challenges as well, what keeps you going and continuing to post and continuing to do what you're doing in a public forum? What motivates you to be an advocate for nuclear energy, both on TikTok and as a student as well?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:25:39] So, about every one to two weeks I get a message or two from high school students. Predominantly high school females who are asking questions and wondering, "How can I do this? How do I study nuclear engineering? What college programs are out there?" Students that are maybe curious, but a little bit afraid, have started to look up to me as sort of a role model. Hearing those words and being able to answer those questions and hop on a Zoom call... It takes an hour. That's it; an hour once a week to hop on a Zoom call with a high school student and talk about my experiences, the opportunities available in the industry.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:26:27] The things that you can do in the field... That's probably the thing that fills me up the most and motivates me to keep going. Knowing that there are, however many, a few hundred high school females that have been following me religiously and looking to me for advice on, "What college do I go to," and, "Is it okay if I haven't taken calculus? Can I still do this if I went to community college?" Asking these sorts of questions is so, so important, and there's not really anybody out there who is answering these questions. And so, being able to respond to them and essentially provide the mentorship and resources that those three mentors that I listed, actually four mentors... Can't forget about. [00:27:18]Ms. Nimi. [0.3s] Being able to provide that mentorship and those resources that were provided to me is kind of like my way of passing the torch and being able to give back. It's what makes me feel good and what motivates me to keep doing this.

Phoebe Lind [00:27:38] That's fantastic. Have you ever thought about how your work as an educator on TikTok has influenced your studies or how those two work together to make you both a better student and a better educator? Do you find your work in TikTok coming into your studies at all?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:27:59] Yeah, I think it it depends. I've been fluctuating between these two research projects. I think being on TikTok and being so tapped into not just my nitty-gritty, super technical research topic, but also being tapped into the bigger picture, the nuclear energy industry as a whole, the economic side of things, the policy side of things, the regulatory side of things and getting asked questions about those things forces me to stay up to date. To keep reading the news, keep reading journal articles, and paying attention to what's going on in the world. And I think that brings a sort of awareness and well-roundedness to the table that I wouldn't otherwise have if I wasn't doing TikTok.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:28:54] That being said, I think sometimes my research does fuel some videos that I may be making. There are videos I've made where I'm just like in the lab waiting for an experiment to finish up and I'm like, "Hey, so this is what I'm doing." That can be fun and entertaining. And then, I've also had different videos or things that I've made pertaining to the big picture of my research projects. Looking at what the future of fusion may look like versus looking at what, now, switching projects, this advanced nuclear might look like in the future. So, I think they kind of feed into each other and help build me up and support me as a more well-rounded academic and researcher.

Phoebe Lind [00:29:46] Do you ever get recognized on campus or just out in public as Ms. Nuclear Energy?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:29:51] I actually do sometimes. Sometimes I wonder if it's just because I'm at MIT surrounded by this incredibly technical community. But it was so funny, when I first started in my lab group last year, I was sitting at my desk and one day an undergrad student comes in and starts like smacking the post-doc that I sit with and like poking him. Like, "Oh my God, that's her. Is that Ms. Nuclear Energy from TikTok? That's the TikTok girl!" And Angus, my post-doc mentor, was like, "I don't know, maybe? I'm not on TikTok. I don't know. Go talk to her, it's just Kaylee."

Kaylee Cunningham [00:30:32] And it was so funny; he was too shy to say anything. So, then my mentor came to me later and was like, "Hey, do you run like a social media thing? Like, what's going on?" And I was like, "Oh, my God. Yes, that's me." And I went and talked to the undergrad and I was like, "Hey, if you need anything, let me know. We're just peers. Same lab group, you know?" So, it was funny. And sometimes it's a little... Makes my cheeks turn red, you know? But it is, it's very cool.

Phoebe Lind [00:31:10] Speaking of the undergrad and the post-doc, do you find that there's a divide in how different generations respond to your content on TikTok?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:31:18] Oh, absolutely.

Phoebe Lind [00:31:20] I think your points on like, "It's just hot rocks," and then, "It's just spicy rocks," I find so funny. But I can only imagine how an environmentalist who was brought up to think that nuclear energy is super scary would like really hate us referring to fuel rods as spicy rocks.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:31:40] That's it, yeah. Something I try and communicate in my videos or at least in comments sections or captions, is like... My target audience is not the technical people. I get a lot of, "You're oversimplifying this. This is not all the information." And I'm like, "Okay, yes, obviously saying a nuclear reactor is spicy hot rocks that boil water is an oversimplification." But the point is sometimes to communicate to people who don't have a technical background, you need to simplify. That's the entire point, right?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:32:15] But I have found that a lot of the graduate students that I have interacted with are just not on TikTok. Especially at MIT, they're not really even on social media. And I think that's more of a generational thing. A lot of the graduate students in my cohort are a lot older than I am. I went straight from my undergrad to grad school. I'm only 23, and a lot of my cohort went and worked in industry for a few years or got a master's first and have a little bit older peers and are a little bit more mature and don't really engage in or maybe fully understand the internet and TikTok and Gen Z and all of that stuff. So, I very much on TikTok try to tailor my content to Gen Z because they're the ones predominantly using the application. And I don't know if anybody's told you this, but they're the ones who are going to be running the world in a couple of years. So, getting as many of them engaged in the nuclear industry is probably the most important thing I can be doing and another motivator for making content and using TikTok as a platform, specifically.

Phoebe Lind [00:33:34] I mean, I can definitely see the reach that it has. I'm also in my 20s. Do you ever find that there's a stigma from some of your older classmates or older folks who are in your program against TikTok? And then on a more positive note, how do you explain the positive benefit that it does have?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:33:56] First off, there are always people concerned about security. There was the whole congressional bill and concerns about TikTok not being the most secure application. But my perspective and my response is always I'm not sharing any information that is not already out on the internet. If people can go find it on their own, the nefarious people are going to go find it. I'm trying to bring content to people, specifically younger people who maybe would not have searched for it on their own. And that's kind of the point of doing goofy dances, making memes, making cheeky PG-13 rated jokes and doing these kind of unprofessional things to humanize the nuclear industry as a workforce development tact.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:34:55] I do occasionally get, a little bit of outside of the security concern, "Oh, is that really serious though? And is that really something you want to be doing, putting yourself out there like that and everything else? Aren't you scared of being wrong or saying something incorrect?" And my response is always, "I'm human. You're human. We are all human. We make mistakes. The important thing is that we own up to our mistakes and correct them." That is something that I think builds trust within the social network and within that sort of community.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:35:41] When it comes to me being "unprofessional," quote unquote, on social media, I always point toward the workforce development problem we are seeing in our industry. I heard some crazy statistic that I'm not going to quote here because I don't remember it off the top of my head, but a very, very large percentage of the workforce is retiring in the next 10 to 20 years. And a very, very small percentage of the workforce are students entering the workforce within the next 10 to 20 years. So, we do have this massive gap between these two that we need to fill. And that's the nuclear industry without all the advanced reactor deployment. If we actually see small modular reactors take off or advanced reactors take off, microreactors, then we need people to build the plants, to design the plants, to construct the plants, to operate the plants. And we don't have that, and that's a problem.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:36:43] Making strides to influence and inspire young people to pursue the nuclear industry... Even if they don't want to study nuclear engineering. Even if they're looking at mechanical engineering or civil engineering, or even if they're not even an engineer. We need people in policy. We need people in advocacy. We need people in planning and urban planning and city planning and siting regulations. The list goes on and on. So, inspiring people to pursue nuclear and opening up that door or introducing it as an industry you can go work in is the most crucial thing we need to be doing. And most of the time when I respond with that, people's opinions start to change. The gears start to turn in their head and they say, "Wait, can I be in a TikTok?"

Phoebe Lind [00:37:40] TikTok or something even way beyond that, siting your own nuclear plants or running them. The world is your oyster, truly, in this generation?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:37:50] Absolutely.

Phoebe Lind [00:37:51] All that said, what advice would you give to someone who would be looking to enter the nuclear energy industry?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:38:00] I would tell them to network, network, network. The nuclear industry is one of the most incredibly tight-knit communities I have ever witnessed. Like every other day, I meet someone in the industry who knows someone who knows someone who met me at this... The connections are just so, so crazy because it is such a small field right now. And because it's such a small field but the demand for jobs is skyrocketing. Every single day it's getting higher and higher. And because of that, if you're able to make just one connection to somebody in the nuclear industry, you're basically connected to the entire industry. And with that, then you're able to pull on those connections to find a job that you genuinely enjoy.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:38:56] Going back to the project that I'm working on for my Ph.D., I just personally didn't like the project I was working on and the experiments I was doing. So, I pulled on one of my connections and an old mentor to say, 'Hey, what kind of projects do you have available? What's going on here?" And I started poking around and found the project that is basically my dream thesis. And now it's mine and my future thesis. So, number one is network, network, network.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:39:24] And number two is to be kind to yourself. Show yourself grace, especially if you're studying nuclear engineering or any sort of STEM fields. Really, anything as a whole. We have a tendency to work too much and tend to be on the workaholic side in this industry, and it is so, so important to remember to take care of yourself, to eat right, to exercise. I always like to say, "Do something for your mind, body, and soul every single day." Like, take care of yourself. Because, yes, climate change is important, but your health comes first.

Phoebe Lind [00:40:05] I certainly need that reminder too sometimes. And to your point about the tight-knit network of nuclear as well, we're based in Washington, DC. And it's funny, you go to literally any nuclear related event and 90% of the people here have been a guest on Titans of Nuclear. And it's wonderful that we're building this community and we're all so passionate about moving the industry forward overall, but there's also so many different technologies and we're all so excited about those moving forward...

Kaylee Cunningham [00:40:42] So sorry to interrupt, but I would love to add on to that. People in the nuclear industry are so positive and so helpful. I have never met anyone who is not willing to help with like, "Hey, can you help me track down this sample?" Or, "Hey, do you have these resources?" Or, "Hey, I'm just interested in doing this. Can you tell me more about what you do?" Everybody is always willing to drop anything to help a student, and that is something I think is very unique to the nuclear industry.

Phoebe Lind [00:41:11] Yeah, absolutely. I haven't had a ton of experience on the academic side, but I very much welcome that interruption. But on that point, what are you most excited about in the industry over the next five to ten years?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:41:24] I want to see some small modular reactors built. I am here to see them constructed. NuScale got their design license done... I don't know if it was the design or the siting license. But NuScale is on the way; they are leading the charge with these SMRs. I want to see one built. That's what I'm most excited about.

Phoebe Lind [00:41:49] I imagine you will have a lot of people on this podcast agreeing with you on that point. Okay, all that to wrap up, and even more topics that you cover on your TikTok... Where can our audience find you for more informational videos?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:42:05] Well, first you can go to my website. It's just kayleecunningham.com. And that has links to my TikTok, to my other social media pages, my research, any of my publications, all of that fun stuff. So, that's the best place.

Phoebe Lind [00:42:22] Fantastic. Any final thoughts for our audience before we say goodbye?

Kaylee Cunningham [00:42:30] Just look towards the nuclear energy industry. If you're thinking about a career in nuclear, go for it. Take the leap because you will not regret it.

Phoebe Lind [00:42:41] Amazing. Some great final words from our guest today. Thank you everyone for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode.

Kaylee Cunningham [00:42:49] Awesome. Thank you for having me.

Charlie Cole [00:00:57] Welcome back to another episode of Titans of Nuclear. Today, we're welcoming Paris Ortiz-Wines from Stand Up for Nuclear. Paris, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:01:05] Thanks for having me.

Charlie Cole [00:01:06] Yeah, well, we'll just dive in with the age old Titans question which is, tell us about yourself; where did you grow up? Were you interested in science as a kid? Tell me about your upbringing.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:01:19] So, I grew up in a beautiful beach town called Santa Barbara here in California. Living right next to the beach, loved doing all the water activities. It had perfect weather all the time. And come to find out, it was actually an hour-and-a-half south of our only nuclear plant that's currently in operation, Diablo Canyon in California.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:01:42] And so growing up, I wanted to do many things. I changed my major a couple of times at City College. But when I learned about climate change for the first time at City College, I was like, "Wow, this is a huge issue. How did I never know about it?" I didn't know about energy, I didn't know about anything about anything. And so, I decided to pursue a degree in environmental studies, and I ended up at the University of Santa Cruz. So, five hours north of where I was residing. The first two years I was just going to transfer there. I had a big family unit and big community in Santa Barbara that I always thought I'd return to. But when I went to the University of Santa Cruz...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:02:32] You know, college is a big thing for any person. When you go away, it's like an awakening, right? It's usually your first time away from your parents and you have to rely on yourself for a lot of things. So, I watched a documentary called Cowspiracy, and I went vegan. And then I started making my own deodorant and my own shampoo and conditioner. And I was fully in the movement of like, "Oh my God, we have to redeem ourselves. We're doing so much harm to the earth."

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:03:03] And so, I thought I was going to work for Sierra Club. I applied to Sierra Club and NRDC. Like, I knew nothing. I was like, "What do environmental studies do? What do I do as a career? How do I help?" Everybody's looking for that way to make their mark in the world. I was like, "These big companies or organizations would be..." And then I found myself into nuclear. I started at a nonprofit, and their main focus was nuclear energy. And for me... Maybe it's similar for you, I didn't have any of the baggage for nuclear. So I was like, "Sounds real cool. That's going to be the solution." And then I wasn't sad anymore.

Charlie Cole [00:03:51] Yeah. How did you find that path into nuclear. Is that Environmental Progress, or...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:03:56] Yeah. So, I started at Environmental Progress. I graduated Santa Cruz, and my partner and I moved up to The Bay. I was like, "Well, there are no jobs for me in Santa Barbara, so I might as well go make a name for myself and maybe I'll return." And so, Environmental Progress was the organization that I started at. That was Michael Shellenberger's previous organization. I started off as an assistant, and I was so stoked. I'm working at an environmental nonprofit; I'm doing the thing. But oh wait, we did this really weird thing. We support nuclear energy and we save existing plants from closing down. And we were in the heart of Berkeley, which is currently a nuclear-free zone, which is something that we're trying to undo. But yeah, I had to watch the TED Talk, and it was why I changed my mind about nuclear from Michael.

Charlie Cole [00:04:46] Did you watch the TED Talk before joining Environmental Progress?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:04:50] Yeah, so that was one of the things, right? They were like, "Hey, have you looked at our website? Have you watched the TED Talk?" And I said, "Yes, I did. I did my homework, and I'm onboard." There was no hurdle, there was no convincing me because I didn't have any of the fears and baggage with it. All I knew was... I think the word association was "nuclear means bombs." And I was like, "Oh, there's energy?" I felt so dumb that I never knew about it. Energy wasn't a big topic in environmental studies. You could opt into it and take classes, but there's a big divide between engineering and humanities, so I think there's disdain for each other. And I feel like I was cheaped. I should have had to have taken a class on energy because it is such a vital part of humanity and then also, environment.

Charlie Cole [00:05:48] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you learn about nuclear, you join Environmental Progress as an assistant. Were you doing research there, or did you transition from this? How did you then get deeply involved in the research?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:06:06] Let's continue. I get the assistant job, and I'm like, "Okay, very cool. I get to go on a couple of trips." And then, having the humanities degree, I was like, "I should have done some more science stuff." The analyst at the time, Mark Nelson, was there doing all the numbers. And I was like, "Mark, you need to teach me. Help me understand what energy is. Kilowatt hour versus kilowatt, power versus energy. I just don't know where to start." So, I transitioned into a research assistant position and helped with all of the energy graphs that we would put out that were used in Michael's articles and reports.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:06:47] And then, we come across in... I'm trying to get my dates. You know with COVID, all the times blur together a little bit. So 2019, 2018, we were like, "We've got to do something. Nuclear plants keep shutting down. There's nobody moving on it." That's when Nuclear Pride Fest was instituted, which was a coalition of groups based in Europe that came together who were like, "We need to come together for a day. We need to go out and engage with the community." And then, that is what has transitioned to Stand Up for Nuclear.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:07:24] So during 2020, everybody kind of broke off from Environmental Progress. And Mark and I went off, and I basically continued the project. We can't let it die. So, I'm volunteering my time for this global initiative, and it's very simple. We advocate for protection and expansion of nuclear, whatever that may look like. Small, big, existing, future ones. That's how I found myself in it.

Charlie Cole [00:08:00] One more environmental progress question, just as someone who's chatted with Mark Nelson and Maddie Czerwinski... In my head, there's this group of like you, Mark Nelson, Maddie Czerwinski, Sid Bagga, folks who were sort of in the cult of environmental progress who are now all doing very amazing and very different works in nuclear advocacy. What do you feel was influential about the atmosphere at Environmental Progress? How did you all work as a unit? I know if you were all there at the same time. What was the path of just springboarding off of Environmental Progress?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:08:33] Yes, it seems like an incubator, right? Michael is this brilliant mind on nuclear and I would say one of the leading ones for action. And when you come into EP, it was a very small team. Maddie was the VP, Mark was like the analyst, I was assistant, then turned research assistant, then we had somebody else as Michael's assistant. But what I think worked was that everybody's input was valued. Whenever Michael would write a piece, an article, everybody got the copy regardless if you were super technically knowledgeable. It was like, "We want your opinion." And so, I think that sense of fostering your voice.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:09:17] And then also, because it's a small team it's kind of like a startup vibe in the sense of everybody works together on projects. Mark and Maddie and I would work on projects; we traveled together. And I think we could see... We were never limited in what we could do. And I think that really helped us and inspired us with like, "Oh, there's so much more we can do." And I think we were all outgrowing our current positions. And I think COVID really was like, "What are you going to do with your life?" COVID really made a lot of people reevaluate. And Michael went off and did his own thing, and so I think it was perfect timing. So, I think there was a sense of confidence that was built there with the small team and with a leader that really doesn't shy away from anything. He is very outspoken.

Charlie Cole [00:10:09] Yeah, that's for sure. Okay, amazing. All right, so then we transition from Environmental Progress to Stand Up for Nuclear. And you said it was the joining of a lot of European groups? Maybe speak a little about the origin of Stand Up for Nuclear.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:10:28] Originally it was called Nuclear Pride Fest. There were about a dozen European groups. So back at EP, Michael and Maddie went to Europe to engage with these groups. And we're like, "Let's form the Nuclear Pride Coalition that will host a Nuclear Pride Fest." And then, after the success of our first one in Germany, in Munich, many groups...

Charlie Cole [00:10:51] Oh, in Germany.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:10:51] I know. We went to the heart of anti nuclear-ism and were surprisingly well-received. There were only a couple of people that were really... I think some were from the Chernobyl area, that area, and they were like, "How dare you?" Anyways, success for Munich, and then people wanted to join. And that's when the rebranding happened for Stand Up. So, that first year was under EP's umbrella. And then 2020 came around, we all split off. And then, Stand Up was a standalone global initiative. We wanted to rebrand it a little bit that anybody can join it, anybody can use the name as long as it's under these conditions of promoting our message and mission.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:11:35] So, now we are in our fourth year, I believe, going on our fifth. The recognition comes from these events that we do. So, our main thing is action and awareness, and that has looked like throwing on a Stand Up for Nuclear event. And it could be as small as a tabling event or signing outside a certain area, or all the way up to international events or even reactor closures where we go there and we memorialize the loss of the power. So, not all are happy and not all are very hopeful, but it is to say that there is a voice saying, "That is wrong." There is a voice saying, "This is what we need." And that's the spirit of it, right? Nobody is speaking out about it. And I think that's definitely changed now.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:12:28] Maybe you've experienced it. If you're not in the nuclear industry, if you don't work at a plant, it's hard to find your community and find others who think similarly to you. And with these events, those have been, I would say, tools to build community. And then once communities are built, then the actions come and it's not just... But we currently have September as our Stand Up season, which I think we might evolve for the next coming year. But basically, anybody around the world can have an event and you share this news in our network, basically. How did you do it? What were people's responses? What media came out? What was your goal?

Charlie Cole [00:13:14] Yeah. I'm sort of amazed by the idea of mourning the loss of the power. I've heard a lot about actions at Diablo Canyon and in Illinois, but where have you guys done events at plant closures? Mourning the loss of power is a real idea. It sounds like a really amazing way of realizing that the opposite of nuclear isn't a neutral world, it's a world with more coal, more air pollution, more climate change. And so, I think that's a really, really salient idea to mourn the loss of power. What did that type of event look like?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:13:47] The first one that we did was for Indian Point. So back in 2021, I believe. In 2021, we were talking with our allies and it just wasn't looking like things were budging. Timing wasn't on our side, there wasn't this momentum that we could capture, people that we could flip, basically. And Cuomo was behind it. And once Cuomo said something, it wasn't going to change. So, Indian Point was coming up and we were brainstorming ideas. I came across on Pinterest... I was looking up labor movements, looking at what other people had done. And I saw this beautiful image of Italian workers who had laid out their white helmets in a beautiful plaza, and each one represented each of the workers. And I said, "Okay, well, if the mayor is going to be holding a press conference for Indian Point, we're going to be there and we're going to basically thank the workers for working there, providing clean power and providing that clean power for not only their communities, but for New York City itself. That was the largest source of clean energy.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:15:00] We went there and we took this yellow helmet idea; we did yellow. There were a thousand jobs that were lost, so we hand hole punched each of these helmets, these little plastic helmets, and zip tied them to the fence along the park that was right outside the plant. So as workers were going in for their last shift, as they were exiting their last shift, they saw. And it's very impactful. Humans are very simple creatures, creatures of habit, and we love beautiful things in color. And it was a beautiful, sad sea of yellow. And we saw the mayor there and we got coverage. We had people speak there; workers from the plants. And we made it known that we did not want this plant to close.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:15:50] Those images were featured in National Geographic. They're on Getty Images and I believe Loud, a Good Morning America-like channel covered it. What we found is you need to capitalize on those moments because we can go on Twitter and send our messages and we can send some emails to legislators, but really the media is a very impactful tool. So, that was the first one, and it was a big success in the sense of our images were used.

Charlie Cole [00:16:24] Yeah, and even just recognizing... I feel like so many folks in the government probably think that closing a nuclear plant is like... They don't even think about it. It's just like, "Oh yeah, we've got to age that out." And so, even just taking this moment to realize what you're losing, I think that's such a huge step.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:16:41] Right, and the people too; the recognition. We talk about energy transition and jobs, but these are existing jobs, right? Nuclear is one of the heaviest unionized industries and they protect their workers. And those workers lost their jobs, and those are clean energy jobs.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:17:02] And of course, we monitored the situation, and the New York Times came out, I believe, with an article. People were starting to say close up to the deadline that we shouldn't shut down Indian Point. And then, Sid Bagga published the viral tweet basically showing that New York's instate electricity emissions increased by about 30% within a very short time right after. So, we can see it, right? Jobs were lost and emissions increased. They were replace with fossil fuels. And I believe it was replaced, one of them... I believe it's called Ravenswood, in AOC's area was turned back on to deal with energy shortages soon after in the year.

Charlie Cole [00:17:50] Did she coverage on that at all, or did that?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:17:52] No, I think AOC's position has since changed. I think she's a little bit more open to it. But as far as Indian Point, I think... Similar to Diablo Canyon, Indian Point was a very heavily contested plant. Mark Ruffalo, Leonardo DiCaprio, all were against Indian Point and celebrated the victory. We were up against big money, big power.

Charlie Cole [00:18:19] Yeah. Wow, okay, pivoting from sort of the sad loss of Indian Point, maybe the next big chapter in Stand Up is Diablo Canyon.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:18:28] Yes.

Charlie Cole [00:18:29] So, tell me about that effort. How did you guys first get involved and what were some strategies learned? Was there anything from the Indian Point work, like learnings you guys brought to Diablo Canyon?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:18:39] Yeah. I think with Indian Point, we really began to understand the politics behind how embedded it is in the political structure and I think, specifically, political parties. Not saying that it cannot be changed, but there's a legacy with nuclear and specifically with blue states. And I think Indian Point and California are similar in their political scene; I'll say that.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:19:06] So with Diablo Canyon, Diablo Canyon had the largest anti-nuclear protest in the United States during its construction. It was a heavily contested site. There were supposed to be six reactors instead of two. Imagine if we had six now, right? We have two; that's about 10% of our power, 15% of our zero-carbon electricity. I say power; energy. And imagine if we had four more. Oh, my God.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:19:36] So, with Diablo Canyon, there was an initial effort that had started with Heather and Kristin from Mothers for Nuclear, Michael back in the day during EP days, Eric Meyer from Generation Atomic; that was under a different umbrella. They had started before the joint proposal came out. For those who don't know, a joint proposal was signed by multiple stakeholders basically saying that we're shutting down Diablo Canyon. They will not be allowed to re-license and we're agreeing that we're not going to re-license. PG&E was in on that, I believe. The Sierra Club was in on that. Labor unions from Diablo were in on that.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:20:15] So, that effort had started back in 2016. Up until then, once a decision was made there was a really big feeling of just loss and I would say, a lack of hope of what was to come. But fast forward to 2020... 2020, 2019, all my dates are mixed up, is when California had those... We have wildfires every year, but these were the wildfires that led to the orange skies. And that was a viral image showing like, "Oh, my God, this climate change, right? We have to act fast." And that was the same time around when California was suffering rolling blackouts, rolling brownouts, I'll say. So, we didn't have enough power and climate change is coming to kill us all. That was like the sentiment, right?

Charlie Cole [00:21:13] And also, just to speak to the orange sky, the yellow helmets... We just are suckers for a colorful image. It's just so evocative.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:21:21] Yes, yes. And so, Isabelle Boemeke, known as Isodope, she was based in California. And she basically, around this time, started to reach out to a lot of pro-nuclear organizations. And nobody wanted to touch it with a ten foot pole because everybody said, "It's a done deal. That's not what we do." I think there's this air of superiority against advocacy, and I think advocacy is compared to activism and marching on the streets and being very forceful. And advocacy is a beautiful range of things that you can do, right? Very small things like sending an email or posting a picture all the way up to like tying yourself to a nuclear plant. Like, there's a range. I haven't done that one yet, but maybe.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:22:11] And so, she basically reached out to me and was like, "Hey, are you guys doing anything about Diablo Canyon?" And I was like, "Uh, kinda. But we can. That's one of our issues that we're looking at." But we were like, "Yeah, perfect. We're in California. Of course we want to save it." It just was like, who's going to restart the effort? You need some event to reignite it and to gather people, right?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:22:37] So then, Mothers for Nuclear got involved and we started collecting all these random people. That was, I think 2021, I believe, or 2020. And we started a WhatsApp group and we're like, "Welcome to the group that's going to save Diablo Canyon." And we extended it for five years.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:23:05] During those two years... I'm not going to go in the weeds. We all reoriented ourselves and we're like, "What's the status of the plant?" We created this beautiful Epiq document. Like, "What about the earthquakes? What work do we have to do?" Got that all together and we're like, "Okay, let's get some more people." And we started doing little actions. Isabelle, with her group that she's connected with started reaching out and like, "Who's doing anything about Diablo?" An MIT study came out about Diablo Canyon and its use for hydrogen and desal. That was really good.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:23:43] And then Isabelle did a beautiful effort to get 80 academics and scientists to sign a letter to Newsom saying, "Don't shut down Diablo Canyon. Don't call yourself a climate leader because this is what you're doing." And a couple of months after that letter was released, we see in the LA times... Nobody knew, but Newsom had done... Governor Newsom had reached out to a reporter at the LA Times and basically did a story that he is reconsidering his position on Diablo Canyon.

Charlie Cole [00:24:16] Re-considering.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:24:16] Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, like so juicy." And this was like the second year, right. And there were moments and months where we still met weekly but we didn't have any news. But we were just like, "Let's talk about nuclear. Let's keep this going." And once that article hit, Izzy didn't even know about it. And we were like, "Did you know about this?" And he really reconsidered it. Like, "Oh, my God." And so, we all gave him so much love, right? We called his office, we sent him emails like, "Thank you so much for reconsidering." It takes a lot of courage to do that, especially if you're a politician.

Charlie Cole [00:24:50] Right. People don't change their mind that often. I'm sure the WhatsApp group chat was crazy.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:24:55] Oh, yeah. It was popping off. We were all sending messages. I have to mute them sometimes because we just go off. But so that happens, right? And then Dianne Feinstein comes out with a public letter saying, "We should reconsider." And like, she's part of the old Democratic structure where she was anti. And she's visited the plant and was still, "No."

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:25:16] And then a couple of months later, we hear legislation is being proposed. So keep in mind, Diablo Canyon was supposed to go offline in 2025. There is a deadline for nuclear plants to order fuel, to submit their relicensing. It takes time to do this because there's beautiful, complex clean energy infrastructure to keep them safely operating. So, legislation's being proposed.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:25:42] And this is where our group came in. Like, Newsom... I think the letter really helped Newsom, it's political cover. But we did find out that people within his office were telling Newsom like, "You're going to have blackouts." CAISO, the California independent operator for the grid and the California Energy Commission which monitors our climate goals and how we're getting there in our plants were saying, "You're going to have blackouts. And if Daddy Newsom wants to be president, you cannot have that happen on your watch." So, the shortages were just... I don't remember the exact numbers, but we're talking about thousand of megawatts of power that we were going to have a shortfall of.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:26:30] So, legislation is being proposed. We hear the word. They're like, "We're going to have a public meeting." We need pro-nuclear support. We need advocates for this legislation showing up to this meeting to signal to the office that this is going to be a way forward. This was a seven hour public hearing call. We were on that call for seven hours.

Charlie Cole [00:26:52] Oh, my God. A Zoom call or an in-person...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:27:00] This was on the phone.

Charlie Cole [00:27:03] Oh, my God. A seven hour phone call.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:27:04] Call in, right? They had a conference meeting you could follow online, but you had to call in. The group that we assembled and all of these advocates, all of them were on the call. All of our group was on the call. We had heard from his office like, "You guys need to show up." And that was our moment. That's where the consistency of the two years and us meeting weekly even though we didn't have anything to talk about, that's when it came into play. And we outnumbered the antis on that call. And then, a series of meetings happened. We're all calling in. Some House assembly members, and then we had the Senator meeting.

Charlie Cole [00:27:46] Yeah. Is this like you all provide talking points for all the advocates calling in? What does that sort of look like, the call in?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:27:56] Great question. Our WhatsApp group is like our core group, right? So, we have Mothers for Nuclear, we have Isodope, we have Stand Up, and then we have other organizations in there. Within this, I would create the documents of talking points. Like, how to call your legislator. And then we'd provide a spreadsheet. It's like, "Here are all the numbers. Here's the link of how to find your legislator if you don't know who they are." Talking points, and then also email addresses. Like, "Send them emails if you can't call in." We would do some phone banking efforts. Like, "Come on and hop on." I would be independently messaging people on social media and emailing them. Like, "Hey Monica, can you please email and call." That personal touch really goes a long way. Those are the people who showed up, provided public comments, and over the phone.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:28:53] And then, it was all over to the legislation. So, we showed up to the capitol. We did some beautiful projections. We were out there until the vote. It was like until one in the morning, midnight, that they were voting on. It was one of the last issues. And you could go into the capitol and you could see them voting. And it was a landslide. Everybody fell in line. All the Democrats, except for a couple, all voted yes to extend Diablo Canyon by an additional five years. So now instead of shutting down in 2025, we have it until 2030, but we're going to get the full 20. So, it's not going to be 2030.

Charlie Cole [00:29:34] That's all you guys needed. All you needed was that reconsider. Give them an inch...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:29:38] Yes. We live to fight another day, right? We have the five years to breathe.

Charlie Cole [00:29:44] Yeah. So those call-in talking points, was it very sort of blackout oriented? What was the message specific to California that was really resonating with people?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:29:54] It was a mix. I would do it by section. So, first one is climate. Like, "If you shut down Diablo Canyon, according to this study, this amount emissions will be increased. Or, "Currently we have 50% of our electricity coming from gas." And the next one would be energy reliability. And it was actually pretty... I would say, informative. A lot of individuals would call in for the climate angle and then also touch on high electricity prices. And that's what we're seeing. California has the second highest electricity prices in the nation. And that's a combination of factors that have led to that. And then, we saw businesses... Energy reliability was their biggest point. Hospitals were like, "You can't sacrifice energy reliability because..."

Charlie Cole [00:30:51] Right, baseload power's so important.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:30:53] Yeah. So, it was a variety of talking points. They could pick; I let them.

Charlie Cole [00:31:00] That's really interesting. Wow. Yeah, just what a success. I was definitely following along with it on social media. I didn't get quite as involved as I probably should have, but that's just an amazing story.

Charlie Cole [00:31:08] So, I guess that then brings us to the next question, which is what are you working on now? I feel like I've seen some stuff in Illinois. I know Pritzker just recently had a bad veto. I've seen some stuff with Germany as well. Mark came out with some report about getting German plants back online. Where are the priorities lying now? Is it folks just doing their local work, with people in Illinois doing Illinois and people in Germany doing Germany? What are you guys working on these days?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:31:39] I'll do it by country. In the US... So for example, in California our existing plants are currently fine right now. None are on the chopping block; we're doing okay. But now we're seeing throughout the US, we're talking about doing... Whether it's feasibility studies for advanced reactors, small reactors, or we're seeing moratoriums being repealed. So, we're working on a campaign in California still in the works to repeal our nuclear moratorium. Illinois was doing the same. And they had bipartisan support. And Pritzker, we believe, felt internal pressure from individuals or organizations to veto the vote. We're going back to the drawing board to see what our options are for that.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:32:31] We're seeing the sense of... You know, the AP1000s at Vogtle are near complete. The fourth one's almost.

Charlie Cole [00:32:36] Yeah, the third one's online.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:32:37] Yes, the third one's online. The fourth one is being fueled, I believe. And now it's like, "Okay, so you built this huge project. Where are the big ones coming?" There's been a lot of pressure and, I would say, push for the small reactors that, as we know, are still not built. Have not been built. We've seen some politicians be like, "Okay, what about nuclear? What would that take?" I think we as advocates are looking to see how can utilities start to purchase or order some AP1000s. So, it's a positive vibe for the US. I think for Stand Up, we're currently looking at California, Illinois, and then what's after Vogtle.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:33:27] And then abroad, we have Germany. Mark has been one of the loudest international voices about the German closures. So for them, we still can restart a couple of them. I think right there, our advocates are still continuing to harness that energy from those who are speaking out saying, "Hey, actually we should turn them back on. Actually, we made a mistake." And on the other side, environmental movements are like, "Why are we opening coal? We know why we're opening coal. Because you shut down power. You have to have power to replace power."

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:34:05] And then, we have countries now that since the energy crisis are like, "Oh, nuclear looks like a really good idea. Maybe we should include it in our national plan." Sweden just announced an additional 10-plus reactors, I believe. Norway is looking into building their nuclear, to talk about nuclear. In Denmark, they're looking at nuclear as well. Politicians are like, "Okay, what would it take?" Then we see the Netherlands, they're going to build two more reactors near their existing site.

Charlie Cole [00:34:39] Because they're all looking at Finland and how Finland just finished their climate goals with Olkiluoto. It's like 98% of their power is carbon-free now.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:34:48] It's like, "Oh, chef's kiss. I'm done. Oh, let's electrify. Okay, we'll just see what happens." And then, we have other countries like the Philippines and Indonesia where nuclear is now included in their national plan. And now they're like, "Okay, what is this going to look like for us?" And I think a lot of African countries as well are like... You know, they have gotten the short stick on many things for multiple decades. So now, energy sovereignty, energy reliability for them is a big one. And unfortunately, the US isn't giving them many options, but Russia and China are. So, they're looking at some reactors.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:35:28] So with Stand Up, we are continuing to harness the good mood here in the US. And abroad, we're continuing to monitor existing sites to make sure... Belgium is still on the chopping block. But I would say the political arena in the EU is changing. For better or for worse, it's leaning more towards the right, center of right, which is usually good for nuclear, but usually kind of mixed on other issues.

Charlie Cole [00:36:05] And with the Russian War... Do you feel like the talking points in Europe, both because of the center-right shift, but also war with Russia cutting off Russian gas... Is energy reliability sort of becoming a bigger leading talking point?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:36:18] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because everybody was like, "We were doing so good. We were on our way to meeting our climate goals and we were taking a lot of generation offline." In the UK specifically, too. And then, the energy crisis hits and we're like, "Oh, look at how vulnerable all of you were and how you cut production. And now, you're scrambling to get more online and then you're sending..." In the UK, they sent their customers during winter socks to thank them for conserving electricity. And, "Thank you for doing your part, so stay warm with your socks." So right now, it's energy reliability and sovereignty. You've got to have your own stuff fixed, worked out.

Charlie Cole [00:37:05] Which was, sort of from my understanding of history, the guiding philosophy for France, right? Wasn't it energy an energy sovereignty post-oil crisis push in the '70s? It's sort of interesting how we want climate change to be the thing that really excites people, but it's really only when their light switches aren't turning on. Sort of visceral things like that.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:37:30] Connecting, that's something that people... Everybody can remember the feeling of turning on the light and it's not on. You're like, "Oh my God, the power's out. Oh, my God."

Charlie Cole [00:37:39] Yeah, yeah.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:37:41] Yeah, similar to you, I was so bummed it wasn't climate. It's not climate that really gets people upset. Of course, it's emissions but also, I think it would be air pollution, like the things that you can tangibly see. But we'll take it. I mean, energy sovereignty... You can rebuild your nation and ensure a clean energy future with nuclear. You can do them both, which is the beautiful thing about nuclear.

Charlie Cole [00:38:10] Right, right. Amazing. Okay, so then, as I mentioned earlier, the sort of structure of this collection of interviews is nuclear and youth. So I do want to ask some questions about... I don't know how youth-oriented Stand Up is. I'm sure you interact with a lot of other folks who have been in the industry for a while who are pro-nuclear and younger folks. And so, I'm curious a little bit about what are the differences between those? I think the question that I'm really interested in is what do you think young folks miss about the nuclear industry and what you think old folks miss? What are people missing about nuclear in the future? Anything about nuclear and generational thought. Sort of a lot of questions in one, but...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:38:48] I like them. I'm keeping notes of each one. Okay, so when Stand Up started... It was mainly, I say, older. It's a range, right? There's all the way up to like 70 and all the way down to like young 20s who were initially involved, that knew enough about nuclear to want to show up to an event. And I will say, initially it was mainly men. There are more men that are drawn to nuclear. And I think there's some difference that I've observed going to outside events like South by Southwest. I was able to go and join the Anthropocene Institute and got to chat with young people. And what I noticed was young people are like, "Oh, nuclear is good. I kind of heard about it."

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:39:39] The anti-nuclears really won basically because of their heavy pushback against nuclear. Then, there was just a silence. Like, nobody would talk about nuclear, You had to go to specific classes in your education to come across it. And even then, it wasn't like, "It's really good." It was like, "Oh, this is nuclear. We use it." And that was it. So, chatting with young folks, they're like, "Wow, I didn't know." They don't have the baggage. You have to talk to them a little bit, lead them through, "Actually, it's not that scary. Oh, that was bad. But let's take it bigger context."

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:40:19] But when chatting with the youths and with other people through my experience, I find that men... They're not scared to be wrong and scared to have these outward thinking thoughts and say something that is maybe a little bit outrageous sometimes or really have that confidence to be like, "I'm right." On a technical subject, on a technical subject. This is just a generalization of my experience. And then with women... Which I'm a woman... They're like, "Well, I don't know everything about it and I'm not an expert. Therefore, I cannot have an opinion or say something about it because it's so technical. So if I am going to speak, I want to make sure that it's all right." And I think men have not, sometimes.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:41:17] But that is definitely changing. Me, coming from not a standard, technical background, you can still have an opinion and still advocate for something not knowing exactly how it works. Because if we look at the renewable side... Of course, renewables are a little bit less... They're basic, you know what I mean? Like, they're just basic energy forms. And so they're like, "Go put a panel up there." But like, they don't know how panels are made. They don't know how the wind turbines are made and how they're recycled and stuff, but yet they still are promoting.

Charlie Cole [00:41:48] I was going to say, solar panels seem very simple, but then they're like this crazy layer of silicas and...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:41:53] It's like, "How do you dispose of it? Oh, what? There are some toxic metals in there?" "Yes, there are."

Charlie Cole [00:41:59] It's not just photosynthesis?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:42:01] So, that's the youth part. And then the generational part... Maybe this is more like industry folks. They're always trying to prove the merits of nuclear. Like, "It's really safe." They always start with safety, which is so infuriating as a communication standpoint. Stop talking about how safe it is. And I think they downplay the role that it's going to play sometimes. I think the older generation is like, "Oh yeah, I don't know how how much more we're going to build of nuclear. It kind of looks good. Whereas the youth, just in general, they're like, "If we want to do it, we should do it." And I think there's this more optimistic approach to it. And I think the younger people...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:42:56] Even at Last Energy, the sentiment that you all are bringing and the refreshing modernization of nuclear is really eye catching. It's like a gateway drug for people. That's what usually gets people into nuclear are these small reactors, and then they find out about the big ones, and then they like them both. And that's how they get into it. But I think the younger people are looking for something that works, and nuclear is it. I think the older people sometimes don't know how to capture that energy. And I admit I'm still learning how to capture that. Our movement is not... I would say we have some young 20-year-olds but we don't have high schoolers, usually, in the movement. I think at the moment, it would need to be taken up by a high schooler if I went to go do a presentation, for example, and they start the initiative. I think there are going to be two movements that focus on different angles for nuclear.

Charlie Cole [00:43:59] Interesting.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:44:01] I hope I answered your questions.

Charlie Cole [00:44:03] You totally did. Especially that piece of the older generation liking nuclear. They're often sort of like in their own technical nerdiness of feeling like they need to defend its safety and not really thinking about growth. I've certainly found that to be the case as well.

Charlie Cole [00:44:21] I feel like I've got a couple more small questions that came up while you were talking. One of them is around the AP1000. Vogtle's obviously pretty amazing. Pretty cool that Georgia's about to... I don't know the percentage. I don't want to say a false number, but they're just all of a sudden decarbonizing a lot. And to your point of that maybe other folks are now looking at the AP1000. Maybe there have been learnings from the construction delays and overbudget implications at Vogtle. Do you have a sense just from keeping tabs on the US of where you think the next AP1000 might be or where the future new big construction is in the US?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:45:06] With AP1000, this is where I relied on those who are in the technical field. What actually went wrong with AP1000s? I'd say I have a basic understanding. This design wasn't fully completed when it started construction. The supply chains weren't really that stable, I would say, secure. And it was one of our first big projects that we've done in a while. It was a just a big learning curve and a big learning opportunity. But what we saw is with the first reactor that you start to build, that one usually is the most expensive and takes the most amount of time. There are things that go wrong. And then with the second one, you decrease the time.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:45:53] And so with big reactors, there is an apprehension from utilities specifically in the US to do big projects because some have filed for bankruptcy because financing and the perceived risk behind these projects are large and we don't do big projects anymore. And they usually go overbudget and go off our timelines. But it would be an injustice to not build more AP1000s. Everything is set up now; we're offering them to Poland and to other countries. How dare we not build them in our own country? How lame. Like, what happened? I think this is where we're going to have a new rebranding of what nationalism is. Like, a pride in ourselves and our ability and keeping things at home as well as helping others abroad.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:46:45] So, AP1000s. I don't know where they will be built, but what I do know is that there are a couple of plants that already have combined operating licenses where they literally have a license to build a reactor on site already. And so, there's around... Do not quote me on this, I think around six of them. So, they can start building very rapidly. Like, they could do it now. Each of them have a different reactor design that they would like to build, but they could start building.

Charlie Cole [00:47:18] Are some of them AP1000s? Or, all of them? None of them?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:47:21] I don't know. I would have to double check. But that doesn't mean that other plants that do have room to apply couldn't do the AP1000s. Westinghouse is doing a big push for it. I think they need to do a bigger push. But I do think that financing is going to be a big component. So, I leave that to the policy and money wonks. Like, help us figure out how we can get these costs and the initial costs down and get some security for the utilities to do these projects.

Charlie Cole [00:47:54] Yeah, it'll be interesting to see as Vogtle now finally starts to pay for itself back, maybe it'll just take a couple of years of people seeing Southern Company make some money before the investors want to like...

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:48:05] Yeah. And I think another component to it is that the taxpayers did have to bear that burden. And so there is, I would say, fair frustration with the company and with the project. And I think that's where the nuclear communication and the outrage and the trust is. Like, we are sorry that that this is the case. How are you going to talk to a future community? How are you going to tell them that that's not going to happen? How are we going to talk about that?

Charlie Cole [00:48:43] That's our big question. I'll end with one big final last question, which is, sort of more broadly, what do you see for the nuclear industry moving forward? What is the vision that you individually or as Stand Up for Nuclear see as where we're headed?

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:49:02] I think in general, that nuclear is back at the moment. There's a nuclear resurgence. I don't want to call it a nuclear renaissance, but there is a resurgence where countries, whether it's for energy sovereignty, are looking at nuclear. They don't want to be beholden to others. So, I think there is going to be a lot more interest in nuclear. And what it's going to come down to is can we deliver? Who else is going to start building these babies? Russia and China are doing it; South Korea is getting back in the game. So, I think countries are going to come back to nuclear. There's going to be a learning curve because you have to keep manufacturing, keep doing it, and keep all the systems in place for it to become efficient. Like, what we always say about France, right? You've just got to keep building the same ones, keep everything going.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:49:49] But in general, I think the nuclear industry, I hope, is going to gain some self-confidence in the sense where they don't have to keep proving themselves and asking politely to be at the table when nuclear has been the unsung climate hero throughout time. For the past 65 five years of commercial nuclear operation in the United States, we've provided 50% of the zero-carbon energy in this nation, but yet we're not included in climate conversations. So, I think there is going to be some confidence instilled in workers at plants and also in the industry execs where you're not hated but also you need to step up. Kind of like you're up for a promotion, right? Like, they're not just going to notice you from your hard work, they're going to notice you because you asked for it and you came to them and said, "Here's what I do." And that's what the industry needs to do.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:50:46] I think environmentalists like us are going to keep finding their way to nuclear because they're like, "Things aren't working, and you're lying to me. Give me a solution." So, I think there's going to be a beautiful peak that we're going to reach. Industry's going to be confident and cool and get with the program, and the environmentalists are going to be like, "Hey, we want to help." And then it's going to be a beautiful thing and we're going to have so much nuclear. We need it. Like, I want power, all the time, 24/7, no sacrificing.

Charlie Cole [00:51:16] Wow. Thank you so much, Paris. I loved the conversation. I appreciated chatting with you; everything was great.

Paris Ortize-Wines [00:51:26] It was super fun. I appreciate it.

Francesco Tassi [00:00:58] Well hello, and welcome back to Titans of Nuclear Podcast. I'm Francesco Tassi, and today we're here with Charles Oppenheimer, founder of the Oppenheimer Project. You might recall that we had Charles on the podcast not too long ago, but he's been up to a lot since then. Charles, welcome back.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:01:15] Thank you. I'm still a big fan of Titans of Nuclear, so I'm really happy to check back in here.

Francesco Tassi [00:01:22] Amazing. Well, we always start with a brief dive into someone's upbringing and introduction to nuclear here at Titans. I invite listeners to Episode #377, where Charles delved into his upbringing and his grandfather's legacy as Director of the Los Alamos Laboratory during the Manhattan Project. Today, I want to take an opportunity to explore uncharted territory with our guest. So, let's dive in.

Francesco Tassi [00:01:44] Charles, over the past two decades, your career has spanned technology and finance, from founding several software startups, to more recently, roles as investor and operating partner at Breakthrough Investment Firms, and as listeners might be most excited about, founder of the Oppenheimer Project. Before we delve into your career path, what excited you growing up and during your early education?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:02:15] Having somewhat of an non-traditional upbringing, some parts of it off the grid, wilderness and nature-based leanings always seemed the most important to me. Like, taking care of the natural world, being involved in it, going camping, just being involved with the outdoors. It was a unique, rare time to grow up in the mountains, not around heavy industrialized society.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:02:48] Also growing up, like many people in the 1980s, we all thought we were going to die from nuclear war. It was a time where there were building, escalating tensions. Even movies, popular movies like Red Dawn just had this assumption that this was all going to go south and end in a smoking cloud of rubble. That always seemed dreadfully important to me. Can we solve this problem of the threat of weapons?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:03:20] But career-wise, I just happened to like software and just intellectually got into programming at a young age. And when it came to make a living in San Francisco, I just gravitated towards the software field and took it naturally as it came. What was going on around me was a big boom in internet software stuff and I just jumped in and got involved.

Francesco Tassi [00:03:47] That's interesting to hear that constant connection with nature. That's something that, in many ways, can connect to the energy as well, and that was sort of a constant for you. And even today, do you still get into nature today?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:04:05] Yes, every chance I get. I go up to our ranch in New Mexico a few times a year and spend a few weeks taking care of the fences, doing manual labor, and I go backpacking and camping any time I can. I've come to believe... I started looking into conservation efforts where you save pockets of wildlife and try to connect them.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:04:25] I think if you look at our future, we can turn around this abundant energy future where there really are enough resources to build lots of urban places. And there are a lot of parts of natural world that can really come back and thrive; that's happened many times. So, I think that's the most optimistic vision of something like a rapid expansion in nuclear energy at industrial scale. Having thriving urban areas and access to true, wild, natural places can be a beautiful alternative than smoking rubble of destroyed cities. So, we can choose our own future, I think.

Francesco Tassi [00:05:07] That's very powerful. Going a little bit into your career path... More recently, I also noticed you're a 8090 Industries. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:05:21] Yeah, well, that's a good example of the power of doing media. That actually derived more or less from my last conversation on Titans of Nuclear. When I came on to Titans of Nuclear, you start something. I've always had the intention that speaking for my grandfather and publicly talking about what his values were could help in some way. Actually, as a result of that podcast, which was one of the bigger media things, one of the partners, Rayyan, reached out to me and said, "Hey, I heard your podcast. It seems really interesting. Let's chat." And that ended up developing me getting in touch with and being introduced to a lot of people in the nuclear energy investment space. And they said, "Hey, why don't you come on and help with the firm?" I really like their focus on decarbonization through industrial partners because so much of the world's energy use comes through that avenue. And so, that's an example of how just getting out there and doing it can inspire on a path that you never really thought of.

Francesco Tassi [00:06:25] That's incredible, the power of podcasts. And I think that's something all listeners appreciate. But thinking around investment, even though this has been sort of an early introduction for you to the investment world, how crucial do you see the role of investment firms for bringing new energy technologies to the market and any kind of clean energy technology?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:06:52] I've had a good developing learning journey on that. A lot of my background started with Titans of Nuclear-type material, not secret Oppenheimer documents or anything. I just got involved in the newer resurgence of the field. And then of course, I'm lucky to be able to get in touch with people who are in the nuclear energy field, talk to them, get their perspective. And I've done a series of surveys where I started with the idea that the whole problem with the industry is regulation and it stopped everything and everything's broken down because of that.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:07:30] I've evolved my understanding to understand, at least with the big nuclear, large utility scale nuclear output, that could have been so transformational In the United States, one of the key and core blockers is really the financial infrastructure and the dynamics that require a utility to basically have an existential risk on one project, projects that do have regulatory burden and problems. So, potentially solving some of the financial blockers to deploying and making nuclear energy more abundant is one of the most important things.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:08:16] And it also aligns with the Manhattan Project. If you look at when America has done the most important things like the Manhattan Project when it really counted, we didn't say "It's only a military project," or, "Only a government..." You have this coalescing of military resources. There were private market companies bringing everything they could to the table. So, I think that there are really important parts for the private market and collaboration with government and other sources.

Francesco Tassi [00:08:50] Absolutely, and attacking the challenges from all sides for these different stakeholders. I think there's something powerful there too about the role of, in some ways, relationships and networks, whether through venture capital or just across stakeholders. I don't want to make connections here, but one of the things, recently watching Oppenheimer, was the relationships between different scientists and different stakeholders, different worlds.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:09:26] Yeah. I mean, if you look at his skills as a leader... And the biggest example of that was leading the Los Alamos project where it wasn't the fundamental physics that he was contributing, but the fact that he had such a good way of relating to every member, bringing people together, synthesizing things. Even the colloquium that led up to the Manhattan Project, he was becoming a leader and leading those discussions. I'd love to think I have some small part of that or a natural... I definitely have a natural ability to get along with people, even if you're diametrically opposed to me or on the other side. And I think my grandfather had some part of that too. There's just a certain forgiveness in saying, "I know you think something opposite of me. Let's talk about it anyway."

Charles Oppenheimer [00:10:15] Matter of fact, that happened to me earlier this week. I went to an investor conference and one of the participants who was in the House of Representatives, a Congressman, in that audience stood up and said, "Well, the problem is the Democrats and we need to get rid of them. Clear out the House and we can do what we want." Which is not what I think of. I'm not a staunch Democrat, but I wouldn't have put it in those terms. And these are peers of mine. I was like, "Oh, gosh. I feel offended by it." Just the idea of conflict as the basis for our energy abundant future, I don't believe in.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:10:52] But then we worked later and sat around in a group. And I talked to this representative and said, "I really think nuclear is one of the most bipartisan things we could possibly do." And he said, "I agree with that. Here are some things we can do." And by the end of the discussion, he had invited me out to Washington, D.C., to participate in a further discussion, and I was really heartened by that. You can sit in a room with somebody you don't agree with and get over it. And that's one of my fondest hopes for, effectively, the Oppenheimer Project. If you're promoting things through values of getting along and increased unity, there's a lot of room on all aspects including just normal business, human interactions, all the way up to the very difficult international issues that we have to deal with.

Francesco Tassi [00:11:40] That's an amazing insight. I can also think a little bit of my own country, Italy. One of the challenges is having that bipartisan nuclear path. If just one party takes responsibility, it's much harder to get new development. So, absolutely.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:12:04] What is Italy's stance on it? I'm not that familiar with it. Has there been any expansion? What's going on there now?

Francesco Tassi [00:12:11] Recently, the party in power has brought back several initiatives to essentially restart Italy's nuclear programs, which since around the '70s and '80s have been closed. Those conversations are ongoing, but that bipartisanship and I think those networks, like you mentioned, that's...

Charles Oppenheimer [00:12:39] It's really the hardest thing, right? Because we as logical people, a group of nuclear supporters, the renaissance, can say, "This is obviously what we have to do." But there are no guarantees that we do the human side and get our policies and agreements together. But I feel like it's much more hopeful than something even more difficult, which is, "Let's all decide not to point these huge weapons at each other." That's even more difficult. So, I'm starting with nuclear energy as a peace building... I think the numbers show that there's possibility for increased agreement in this space more than other things.

Francesco Tassi [00:13:20] I love that, and I think that's something a lot of us feel and so do probably a lot of listeners on the podcast. Now, as an Oppenheimer, some could inappropriately assume nuclear power was always, if you will, in your veins. When did you first become curious about nuclear power as a solution to energy, poverty and decarbonization?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:13:42] I would say it was mostly in the last two years. Before that, I had just a vaguely negative feeling about it, like, "Oh, it's associated with weapons." I just didn't have a strong opinion on it. I was intending to promote my grandfather's values, which he spoke much more about the weapons issues. He kind of didn't get past that in his career. Now, I do think when he spoke about a shared existential risk that all people face in the 1940s, that's like a fundamental thing. Like, "We made weapons of a certain size... The power of our technology growth means that we will either destroy ourselves, everybody, or get along in a new way." So, that's a fundamental line through all his thinking and words. But if you accept that, you accept that we can't have war in the same way. We have to have a new level of unity. One thing he wouldn't do is create a lot of weapons.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:14:44] And the next thing he probably would do is collaborate with people on making abundant energy. And he said, "There are going to be great uses of nuclear power, but we have to decide if we're going to get along in a certain way first." So growing up, he didn't promote that in the family very much because he really wasn't able to solve the weapons issue or the level of cooperation as much. And so, when I just started researching it several years ago, Titans of Nuclear was one of the first things I came across. I said, "Let me learn about this. What's going on in the industry?" And what I learned surprised me.

Francesco Tassi [00:15:22] That's excellent. For me to, in a way, Titans was a first go-to when I wanted to learn more. You did mention your grandfather was so, in many ways, preoccupied with the nuclear weapons proliferation and that aspect, maybe Atoms for Peace, etc., might have been less of a focus. But do you think if your grandfather could see today the state of America's nuclear energy industry compared to other countries, would he be surprised?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:16:05] Well, that's obviously speculative. But let's just say, I think an outcome of us pursuing an arms race, which he kind of gave a recipe for not doing really ultimately resulted in the lack of our flourishing of the energy industry. Imagine if the past had not involved an arms race, but it did result in shared production of fissionable material and control of fissionable material. The most interesting thing you could do out of that would be producing energy.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:16:47] You know, America produces the most nuclear energy in the world at this point, right? Isn't that the case in terms of gigawatt hours? Now percentage wise, it's not the most, certainly with France being more successful. He was a pretty smart guy, so I can't say that anything would have surprised him, but he maybe would have seen this coming. I have some hope that the things that he did care about and said that we could have an increased level of unity, I think it's still possible. We could still decide that there are areas of framework that the United States and other countries can agree on, even if we're in the midst of conflict, because it's a first principle that if you can have that level of cooperation, you can solve any difficult problems together. I think that's what I'd want out of his advice in this space.

Francesco Tassi [00:17:48] Amazing. And of course, you mention in some other podcasts your grandfather's unwavering sense of duty. That was a strong element. And in many ways, we mentioned the shared existential threat that there was at that time, and there are maybe several even now. And really just a question of do you feel something similar in the sense of duty or shared existential threats today?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:18:23] Yes, I do. And I was thinking about it like... We all feel that way, right? Why does climate change feel like the threat that it is today? It's because people both understand the threat through logical extrapolation. If you believe a scientist's output, you say, "Wow, this is a big threat." And then we also feel like there's something that we can do about it. I think that's something that everybody has some intention... Like, "There are many things I can do in life, but what could I do that could actually make a difference?" And I think that really does motivate a large number of people. It's known as the biggest existential threat. So, I'm no exception to that. I may have spent a fair amount of my living career trying to take care of myself, trying to make a business, make money just like everybody else, but when it comes down to what can you do that can make the biggest difference, we all want to bring our resources to the table.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:19:17] And being an Oppenheimer doesn't necessarily help. All it means is I'll never measure up to Robert Oppenheimer, right? I'm never going to be as smart as him or as good as him. But does that stop us? Like, we have to take what we're given, our adequacies and inadequacies and try to contribute. And so in my case, I can represent his values and his views without being him and contribute. And I think I feel comfortable telling other people, "Hey, if I can do it, you can do it." And so, I think that's what is at stake. That it's not just for a few special people to get involved in this effort, but that really it is open for everybody who wants to make the world a better place.

Francesco Tassi [00:20:00] That is extremely inspiring, Charles. I feel we've beaten around the bush enough. What is the Oppenheimer Project? What led you to it? Please tell us a little bit about it.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:20:15] The intention is to promote, advocate, and invest in my grandfather's ideas. And by speaking for and representing both what he said, his actual values, his words, and make sure his image is out there, that's kind of a foundational piece, rooted in... I've always had this intuition that if people knew more about what he said and his brand, an idea can bring people together. Well, how do you do that? There's the tactical step of literally just speaking for him from the family. That's something that we didn't do. Everybody else in the world feels comfortable speaking for Robert Oppenheimer. People write books and movies and plays and they say that they're representing him. Well, as a family member, it's actually in a lot of ways been more difficult to say, "Hey, I'm part of the family. This is what I think my grandfather meant and said." And it has some relevance, because some of that was passed down culturally and even genetically to me, so I want to represent him from that view. And they are values that are promotable are just really interesting and deep. They said that we need a new level of unity.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:21:24] Now, how do you get there? What do you do about it? The advocacy work that I've laid out involves promoting international cooperation, but in some ways that's most difficult. Nuclear energy, I see as a bridge building component to an increased international cooperation and that we need more energy in the US. And there are advocacy things that could be changed, laws and policies and financial infrastructure that could make more energy available in the short term. So, I have three or four policy goals I've laid out.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:22:02] And I was also able to convene people. So, in the lead up to this movie, there was a July 22nd movie screening that we hosted as a family. I invited some people from the Department of Energy. That's kind of a nice part of being an Oppenheimer. I called them up and said, "Hey, Oppenheimer Science and Leadership program. Is there anybody you would want to send?" And the DOE said, "Yeah, we would want to send 100 people." And so, we were able to get people together in the same room, government scientists, lab leaders. I invited investors and startup founders in the nuclear space, and we were all in the same room talking about existential threats right away. So, of that kind of advocacy of bringing people together just because they're interested in Oppenheimer, I will do that type of thing.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:22:47] And the third component is investing. And I'm putting the most research and the most forward, or a fair amount of the forward looking effort into the investment arm. And there's been an interesting starting point, but I'd be happy to discuss my ideas and get feedback from you and your colleagues about investment ideas.

Francesco Tassi [00:23:12] I love just generally the power of having this event and this legacy be brought to the present in a way and for a scope that is... In many ways, when you watch the film, there's only one scene briefly where we see a reactor, Fermi, Chicago Pile-1. At the same time, right, there seems to be an undeniable current that nuclear power is not only a destroyer of worlds, but that it is valuable, necessary for our survival, a builder of futures, if you will. And that's something that I think is felt. There's sort of an undercurrent there. Do you believe that's going to influence, or it could? How do you see it influencing people's perception and thoughts about nuclear energy?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:24:25] Separating the science from the application, the science of understanding fission and unlocking this source of energy that's millions of times more powerful than the next one in itself was a good thing to do. And then the second question is, how do we deal with that? Are we going to make weapons? Are we going to make energy? It's very clear... To some extent, I feel like the popular support is already where it needs to be for nuclear energy. If it's already gotten up to 60%, there's a very important part of advocacy and public perception. But most people say, "Oh, it's so unpopular." And you say, "Yes, it was so unpopular five years ago, but it's already shifted." If we're up at 60% and you can elect a president at 49.9%, that's effectively as popular as you need it. So, I think the belief behind it has shifted enough to make it possible.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:25:22] What hasn't shifted is the industrial policy and the actual massive amount of output we need of carbon free, firm energy, and that takes time. I mean, these are big projects. Energy transitions take between 50 or 100 years. So, I think there is enough momentum to realistically expect that policy changes start happening, bigger projects start happening in the real world, but it only really counts when you get the real output. Which brings up the question, should we be advocating for a Manhattan Project type effort? Is that the right way to summarize what we should be advocating for as a group? And it brings up questions in people's minds, but it also brings up the success of being faced with an existential risk and doing what the scientists had to do during World War II to get success. That kind of mindset is what I think we need for our climate challenges instead of just saying, "Oh, well, let's do it when we can." You have to really get in there and fight for it.

Francesco Tassi [00:26:42] Absolutely. I think that makes a lot of sense. Then one thinks about the increased role of the government. That convening might happen from a lot of different points, but at the same time, we see in some ways how a film and and a re-willingness to... I mean, even recently, the security clearance... I mean recently, the Department of Energy...

Charles Oppenheimer [00:27:17] Yeah, they rescinded their decision in 1954 and publicly said, "Hey, this was a bad decision in 1954. This is why it was a bad decision, and we don't want to treat our scientists that way." That was an amazing outcome that happened before the movie was released. And actually just last week, I was in New Mexico with Secretary Granholm, and we went to an event at the Los Alamos National Lab. And Secretary of Energy Granholm was explaining, "We really want you scientists to be all in on this energy transition battle and we don't want to treat scientists this way." And it was really compelling, especially for Los Alamos scientists, I believe. It's good sometimes to apologize for historical efforts.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:28:09] I also believe Granholm was so excited and energized about how can we produce massive amounts more of clean energy. I think in her mind, in their policy goals, it's not all nuclear. But for people like us who can get in the same room and advocate for things, they certainly understand the place for expansion of nuclear energy and fission-based energy. I don't think we can do it at the scale we need to without a lot of government involvement combined. They already have some amazing programs to support private companies and financial components and of course, the basic science and research. Those were all really important parts of the effort.

Francesco Tassi [00:28:56] Absolutely. And it takes moments when the entire community has a moment of re-thinking of what is the status quo and what are the hurdles? What is holding industry or startups back? I feel we're getting very close to that moment.

Francesco Tassi [00:29:18] Now, maybe a little lighter... Were you able to have any visits on set when they were filming? Anything you want to share with listeners around that? The film's impact is pretty undeniable across the world. So yes, just your experience.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:29:41] I have a few anecdotes from the movie. One is a call from Christopher Nolan when they were starting the process. Not starting, he had already finished the script and I had heard about it, so I reached out and they gave a courtesy call. And Nolan's opinion and scholarship on the matter, I found very impressive. Most people are just impressed by saying, "Christopher Nolan called you?" So yes, that's impressive.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:30:07] But probably one of the biggest parts of it was discussing the difficulty. Like, "Gosh, this is such a tough subject. How are you going to give it the right treatment?" And he said, "Well, when I did Dunkirk, I knew I would be criticized because it's kind of a sacred thing, the most sacred battle in World War II for the British. But in life, you've got to just give a certain amount of consideration and then do everything. Just go for it. Do it; you know you're going to get criticized, and go for it." And I found that just personally inspiring. I was like, "Yeah, he can do it; I can do it. I can do the Oppenheimer Project." So, it made me feel just pure saying that. Even if you have some doubts or fears, you have to go for it. And I think that's the same thing that we all face with looking at this nuclear energy field. There are some amazing opportunities and there are incredible challenges and you have to just really go for it.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:31:09] And I visited the set twice, so that was cool. I met Cillian Murphy, briefly. My daughters met Robert Downey Jr. when they went in the house. And so, that's fun. The Hollywood stuff is cool. I was just barely involved with it as kind of like a guest, and they were they were happy to entertain us.

Francesco Tassi [00:31:31] That's amazing. Yes, not too many people get calls from Christopher Nolan.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:31:38] Well, actually, one other anecdote. When I met Emma Thomas on the film set there, she said, "Hey, why don't you guys do a movie opening in the Oppenheimer family?" And I said, "Wow, that's an interesting idea." So, I signed up for it basically, and made sure that we were doing something from the family perspective. So, when we invited people from the DOE and just said, "Hey, this has to do with the Oppenheimer Project and the Oppenheimer family." So, that was really helpful to get her suggestion on that.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:32:09] It was really tough to organize. It turns out it's tough to deal with Hollywood and all the logistics and stuff. But we ended up self-organizing a movie screening, inviting people including the DOE, and just getting a lot of people together. It was really a special time to, to your point, take advantage of that. If people are talking about science, if they're talking about Oppenheimer, you want to get involved in a conversation then. And so, that was the intention. And I actually ended up liking the movie quite a bit, so that was helpful.

Francesco Tassi [00:32:41] That's always a plus. Since we last had you on the show it sounds like you've been very busy, but as far as the Oppenheimer Project and after that screening, have there been any events related to the Oppenheimer Project that you want to share?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:33:05] Yeah, I mean, most of them are private things I've attended, but still they were important. Being able to be in touch with DOE, participate in that. And as I'm gearing up my next steps, I'm looking to meet people and participate in the conversation particularly around the nuclear energy investment side and international cooperation around it. So, I have one event in Asia in October that I'll be going to, Nuclear Energy Asia, and I'm probably going to go to COP 28. I intend to visit and network with people to get better and more refined ideas on what are the best investment areas in the world and how can we move this forward the most? And so, I've had a series of those types of conversations in developing things. That's mainly been the progress, and I continue to keep doing it.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:34:07] I'm doing some media now. People ask me for media. I'm like, "Sure, I'll do an interview. And then, the work of making that real into policy and into investments is going to be following over all the subsequent... potentially my whole life. It takes a while to do these things, you know.

Francesco Tassi [00:34:27] And also, I feel there's so much of constantly learning. And then in the nuclear field, there's constantly new developments on all sorts of fronts, not just engineering wise, but policy wise, finance wise. That is something that, at the end of day really, you just get to know by saying yes and jumping into it, which is something that I think is so admirable of you despite all the challenges and complexity of nuclear energy having this dual connotation in our minds. I think that's such an important and powerful thing to be doing. And I think you are inspiring many others who are hearing this.

Francesco Tassi [00:35:20] A lot of people in the nuclear industry had the pleasure of reading your piece for Time titled "Nuclear Energy's Moment Has Come." If you could, distill for us some of your major thoughts from this piece, and if you could go back and mentally edit with what you have learned today.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:35:43] Yeah, the Time piece was really successful. The basic idea about it was to try to be in a middle-of-the-road type discussion, not, "I'm a hardcore only supporter of this effort," or on either side. And so, Time was a great venue for that. And I had watched the Nuclear Now from Oliver Stone, so I would definitely recommend that for people. It gave me a refined idea on better understanding the anti-nuclear energy developments. I wasn't exactly involved in anti-nuclear energy, but as a family member, I was definitely very much against nuclear weapons my whole life. So, understanding how those got conflated in popular media. So, by just publishing that and telling people that I think nuclear energy is is a bridge builder and you can get nations together around it and people together, it really seemed to strike a chord.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:36:47] One of the learnings I had is that Twitter and Elon Musk are a pretty powerful voice because Elon replied to that Time article. And if you look at most Time articles that they post, they have like 25 or 50 links. But when Elon weighed in on that thread saying, "I think we should have more nuclear energy too," it bumped up to 100,000 likes and comments. The vast majority of them were like, "We believe this too." So, I'm not sure I would change too much of the substance.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:37:21] I had kind of hoped it to be an Earth Day type message because my grandfather's birthday is on April 22nd. It came out later, the article, when it actually got published. But that idea that nuclear energy is an environmental answer to the earth's problems and not just something else was the substance there. And as part of the Oppenheimer Project, I'm hoping to convene April 22, 2024, the same type of idea. Do it every year and say, "Hey, this is my grandfather's birthday. There's nuclear energy. We should have more unity, more energy, and get people together to discuss things of that nature."

Francesco Tassi [00:38:06] Energy abundance and energy prosperity, that is something that we absolutely need. Incredible. Again, we mentioned there's so much to learn and so much happening in the nuclear industry, specifically with small modular reactors. Are there any subjects that you're particularly interested in or are more curious to delve into in the future?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:38:32] Yeah, I think I've developed a perspective probably through the people I've met and found the most compelling arguments that surprise me, which is really most related to large nuclear. What I'm most interested in exploring now is helping this nascent effort of doing the next Vogtle-type scale project, where you've taken the learnings out of what you've just done and rolled that into the next project and try to help remove the financial barriers and get to really large scale.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:39:04] And I didn't expect that when I started the exploration, that advocacy, policy changes, changes in regulation are all important to help the ecosystem, but there's also stuff that can be done right now in the existing infrastructure at almost the largest scale. And I intend to keep looking into that. Large nuclear with large projects; how quickly can we go? Because if we get through one gigawatt, two gigawatts, ten gigawatts of clean baseload energy, we still need to get the next hundred. So, that's just the starting point of the scale that we need. I'm most interested in exploring that, like the largest nuclear right now, through my learnings.

Francesco Tassi [00:39:52] Yeah, there are definitely challenges and there are definitely different approaches. There's getting smaller megawatt and to integrate as fast as possible, then there's going to be the large build, and that's going to include the whole industry. The front's going to come from all sides.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:40:15] One thing I like about the industry is how collaborative it is, because saying that you're interested in large nuclear doesn't mean in any way that you need fewer SMRs, less newer technology. There are applications all over the world and in every way for multiple advances on this. And I've found, probably with its roots in a scientific collaborative effort from my understanding, that even the very first applications of nuclear energy were being shared around the world by countries that were pointing bombs at each other, but they were still sharing science about nuclear reactors. That's my view, that there's room for all sizes of nuclear deployments for different applications, and they don't necessarily compete against each other. It's just that we need everything that we can get as fast as possible.

Francesco Tassi [00:41:06] Absolutely. And yes, but also the challenges seem to be particularly tough for the largest gigawatt scale, perhaps. Just as far as thinking of government financing...

Charles Oppenheimer [00:41:22] There's a lot more that can go wrong. And if it takes you 10, 15 years to understand that you've made a mistake, that's just an inherent problem with the larger scale stuff. They would have the biggest employer impact, ultimately, but you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. See if you can do larger projects and build up progress, but you also have to diversify and de-risk.

Francesco Tassi [00:41:52] Wonderful. I know there are several listeners that might be interested about potentially joining the Oppenheimer Project. Who are you looking for to join into the collaborative effort of the Oppenheimer Project?

Charles Oppenheimer [00:42:11] Well, probably two categories. On the advocacy and policy side, I've had a really good experience reaching out to people. If you really know the field, obviously many years more than I do, I'm able to take your thoughts and your suggestions and sometimes get them to really interesting places like the Department of Energy and stuff and investors. So, that's something that I'd love to hear as feedback from people.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:42:39] And the other side is on the investment side in looking at generating an investment fund, especially project-based financing for other... Like, I don't intend to create a nuclear reactor company, but I would love to get the financing available that would facilitate those who are creating those and need a project to pull that together. So, if you have experience around large investment fund type things in project-based financing for energy projects, those are the most compelling two areas, I think.

Francesco Tassi [00:43:20] Wonderful. Well, we're extremely excited to hear of the future of the Oppenheimer Project and and where next in the world it will be having an impact and convening different stakeholders to solve some of the toughest challenges facing clean energy and energy poverty across the world.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:43:44] We ended our last one with the same thing. I think I said to Bret, "Well, we should have a convening. Let's get people together." So, I'll say the same thing to you, and maybe we can start planning that and bring people together about this subject.

Francesco Tassi [00:43:57] Absolutely. I think if we've learned anything it's that podcasts can be pretty powerful. We are so excited to have you back for this episode, and perhaps to look forward to another episode in the future. But we thank you, Charles. Thank you so much for spending time with us today, and have a great day.

Charles Oppenheimer [00:44:18] Great. Great talking to you.