TITANS OF NUCLEAR

Phoebe Lind [00:00:59] Welcome back to another episode of Titans of Nuclear. Today on the podcast, we have our special guest, James Chesnut. He is the Senior Vice President of Nuclear Operations at Day & Zimmermann. I'm Phoebe Lind. Again, welcome. James, how are you? Welcome to the podcast. 

James Chesnut [00:01:17] Hey, I'm doing fine. And thank you for this opportunity. 

Phoebe Lind [00:01:21] Of course. We're excited to have you on today. To jump right into things, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where did you grow up? 

James Chesnut [00:01:29] Well, again, I am a second-generation nuclear worker. I grew up on the Chattahoochee River down south in Georgia. Just so had the opportunity to watch this big facility nuclear plant being built, the Farley Nuclear Plant. So, definitely was interested in what was going on over there. 

James Chesnut [00:01:52] Again, like I said, I'm a second-generation nuclear worker following my dad and my two uncles into the construction phase of building a nuclear facility. That was right there near our home. It was pretty interesting because where I grew up was a very agricultural area. And one of the things that you did where I grew up was you either concentrated on farming or you concentrated on working somewhere in the neighborhood supporting farming. And it was the fact that we'd seen this big facility being built near us that was requesting craftsfolk to come and support the construction, and that's how I got involved in the nuclear industry. 

Phoebe Lind [00:02:39] What was your first job? You were one of those craftsfolk, as you say? 

James Chesnut [00:02:43] I was. My first job in the nuclear plant was as a painter. It just so happened that as part of the farming... One of the things that we would do during the during the off-season in farming is that myself, my dad, my brother, and my uncles would help the farmers continue to keep their equipment in good condition. And what that meant was we would apply new paint to them during the non-farming seasons of the year and get them ready for the farming season. So at a young age, I got very familiar with painting equipment. How to sandblast the old paint off, how to do maintenance on the farm equipment, how to apply new paint on the equipment. And I got very good at it. I was probably 13, 14 years old doing the work of adults who were doing the same kind of craft. And so, that gave me a little bit of a head start in the nuclear plant that was being built. 

James Chesnut [00:03:43] Right out of high school, I got the opportunity to follow my dad and follow my two uncles into the construction phase of that. And as one of the youngest workers in the organization, I qualified very quickly as a journeyman painter. For those of you who do not know what a journeyman painter is, that is someone that has the skill and competency at the top of their trade. And of course, I was 18 years old. And because I already had five to six years of experience doing this work, I qualified very quickly. And so, that got me in the opportunity to join a large organization doing construction and watching this big nuclear facility of two units come out of the ground and get ready for generation. 

Phoebe Lind [00:04:32] I'm sure your family members were very proud of you for doing that at such a young age. Did your father and your uncles encourage you to follow their footsteps, or was that a choice you made all on your own? 

James Chesnut [00:04:42] Actually it was encouragement by my dad and and my two uncles. I had no intention of pursuing a college degree. I was always someone that worked with my hands. I've always worked in a vocation of some type. Through high school, I learned how to weld, learned how to be a carpenter, learned how to paint. And those were the things that were being offered through my high school. And so, I was encouraged by my dad and my uncles to come over to the nuclear facility because, as they saw, this was a great opportunity for a good career to develop into. 

Phoebe Lind [00:05:18] So, it was a very economical decision I imagine as well. 

James Chesnut [00:05:23] Yes it was. Yes it was. At 18 years old, making a salary that most adults were making or could not even make was very interesting. My skill set and the fact that I was making the same kind of salary that most adults were making, it continued to influence me to stick with it. 

Phoebe Lind [00:05:50] And then going from being a painter to where you are now as an SVP, did you have an "a-ha moment" where you realized you wanted to work in nuclear energy and make that your career because of the work and the mission itself? Or, was it always focused on the project that you were delivering in your career development? 

James Chesnut [00:06:12] When I started at the Farley Nuclear Plant in Alabama which was right there on the Chattahoochee River... We finished the construction at that particular point... At that time, I was a construction worker and I hadn't really gotten that involved in the operation of a nuclear facility. Didn't know much about it. All I knew was my craft and how my craft could help build something as large as a nuclear facility. And when the construction was complete and the facility went into operation, I had a choice. I could go back into agricultural and farming, or I could follow my career which led me to Kansas, which was one of the last two facilities under construction in the US back in the early '80s. 

James Chesnut [00:06:55] So I followed my career path, moved to Kansas. My family moved to Kansas. My uncles went to Kansas. And we went right back into construction of a facility there in Kansas. And of course, through the years... I was there about 10 years. And of course, continuing to grow up and getting familiar with the area. Met someone from Kansas. Wanted to stay in Kansas. And it was at that point in time that I decided to pursue a career in the operation of the facility. 

James Chesnut [00:07:24] I mean, I knew a lot about the facility. I helped build it. When it went into operation, I was part of the team that was helping to maintain it. I learned a lot about the operation and what it took to make it operate very efficiently, and just got more and more involved with the people who were operating the plant. That's when I decided, "Nuclear energy is something that is very familiar to me. I'm very comfortable with it. I feel safe with it." And so, I just stayed on and went to work for the actual utility company. 

James Chesnut [00:08:01] And it was at that point where I was thinking that, "This facility is... Even though it's a very nice facility, a very small community..." I was looking for more out of my career. And I had several friends who were engineers, project managers, superintendents who were moving to a new opportunity in Arizona. And this was in 1995. My dad had moved to Arizona. One of my uncles had moved to Arizona. And so, I started inquiring about the opportunities there. And it just so happened that they had an opportunity where they were beginning to be evaluated for an INPO 1, or an INPO evaluation. 

James Chesnut [00:08:46] So, the Institute of Nuclear Power Operators... They evaluate each station and they give them a classification of how well they're performing. And this plant was looking to prepare themselves for an excellent report. And because I had just finished working with the facility I was on, helping them get to that same standard of excellence, I got the opportunity to move to Arizona and do the same thing. 

James Chesnut [00:09:10] When I moved there, it took me about six months to get them prepared aesthetically for an INPO evaluation. And once they received their INPO 1 evaluation, which is Excellence & Standards, I continued to stay on there because my background became more around project management, delivering projects, improving the plant. And so, that's really where I felt like my career started to excel, was in the largest nuclear facility in the United States. And I had an opportunity to be a part of its growth and its operation. 

Phoebe Lind [00:09:49] I love that it remained a family affair from Georgia to Kansas to Arizona. You kind of brought your roots with you in that way. And I want to return to one thing that I thought was interesting you mentioned. You felt very safe working at a nuclear power plant. Was that something that you had to explain to people? I mean, obviously, your family members understood that concept. But I mean, in the '80s, that was also the rise of the environmentalist movement and there was a lot of anti-nuclear sentiment there as well. Did you ever have to explain why you loved your work to other people in your community? 

James Chesnut [00:10:24]  You know, I did, because the perception of nuclear in the community... And all that they ever heard was the accidents that have happened in the nuclear industry. You know, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl. And so, I had to explain to them about the amount of safety that goes into not only the construction of the nuclear power plant, but the operation and how they have so many safety barriers that protect the community. And as a young man, I was able to give my own experience around the fact. 

James Chesnut [00:10:55] When I would get into community events and I'd tell them that I worked at a nuclear plant, the most common comment that I would get said, "Well, you don't look like you're shining green just yet." And so, I had to explain to them exactly what that meant in regards to radioactive exposure and let them know of how safe the plants operate in regard to that exposure. And that through a lifetime of working in the facility, I probably had less exposure than most folks in other industries, such as medical, dentistry, and other types of industry that use radiological components as part of their technology. And of course, the fact that I continued to stay very healthy, didn't have any issues. I mean, I was a prime example of, "Wow, if he can work there for several decades, it must be a good place to work." 

Phoebe Lind [00:11:52] So, bring us back up to speed. You were in Arizona. Did you stay in Arizona for the remainder of your career? How did you get from Arizona to where you are now? 

James Chesnut [00:12:04] So in Arizona, I became the site manager for a three-unit facility for my company, which meant that I oversaw all of the maintenance, all of the construction, and all of the refueling every year. And I got the opportunity to learn how to perform along with excellent standards. And as the company started growing through the industry, the opportunity came for me to grow within the company as well and take over more of the fleets in the West. And so, I got an opportunity to move to Texas for a short period and a corporate office. 

James Chesnut [00:12:44] Picked up all of the western fleets and was able to move them into the same kind of operation that I was familiar with, performing their maintenance, performing their construction, and performing their refueling. And it just so happened that I got a chance just to continue to grow my reputation as an individual, as a leader, and as someone that was mentoring others. Just really gave me the opportunity to expand in the company. And as opportunities came within the company to grow, I definitely was very interested in moving more and more into the organization to help move our company into an area of an excellent company for nuclear power, nuclear construction, and nuclear maintenance. 

Phoebe Lind [00:13:30] Okay, so what did your fleet look like? It was the entire western fleet. Were those mostly pressurized water reactors, or what kinds of plants were you working on? 

James Chesnut [00:13:37] So, it was both. It was pressurized water reactor, it was boiling water reactors. Those are the two types of reactors that we have in the United States. As I picked up the West, as others were moving in the company I got a chance to pick up all of the non-union fleet for Day & Zimmermann, which included all of the East Coast plants. It included all the specialties like radiation protection technicians, valve technicians, instrumentation technicians. And so, we started really concentrating on what our delivery was to these facilities to make sure that they were operated in good maintenance, good construction, and refueling. 

Phoebe Lind [00:14:22] So, I know your transition to Day & Zimmermann was a more recent event in the context of your entire career. You went there in January, 2022. Is this still the same work that you're doing today? What are your focuses in 2023, now almost 2024? 

James Chesnut [00:14:39] So, as the company continues to evolve as a nuclear organization, we are setting a standard for... This is the company that we're looking for all of the operating nuclear fleets to come to for their work. And also, we are moving into the opportunities to get involved with new reactor technology. Small modular reactors, advanced reactor technology. So with that, one of the things that I've got the chance to do is just to be on top of that and lead the market. As a market leader for nuclear, one of the things we're concentrating on is, "What does it take to continue to look 10 years, 20 years down the path to see where we need to be as a company to be ready for the next new reactor technology?" 

Phoebe Lind [00:15:37] What technologies are you most excited about? Do you have any projects in the pipeline? 

James Chesnut [00:15:42] We do. We actually have an opportunity to participate in the design and construction and the implementation of a small modular reactor called X-energy; it's the Xe-100. I would like to, as part of my career, be involved in getting one of those small modular reactors in operation and getting people comfortable with that technology. Because once one is built, I believe they'll just start stacking up on top of those and they'll be 10 a year that will be constructed. People will be looking for that kind of technology. 

James Chesnut [00:16:21] With the small modular reactors, what you're looking at is something that's a little more simple in design. It's quicker to get from construction to operation. And you're not looking at these big, large buildings of reactor plants that we have today. 

Phoebe Lind [00:16:38] I will say our listeners are definitely very familiar with SMRs. There's a lot of enthusiasm for exactly the reasons you just stated. The fact that they're safer, can be built faster. Hopefully, it's a little bit faster to get to our first of a kind, and then our "Nth of a kinds" will come out at a more rapid pace. What is your role more specifically with the X-energy project? What services are you providing there? 

James Chesnut [00:17:03] Well, if we could back up just for a moment. An area that I'm really concentrating on now and am concentrating on in a variety of different paths is the nuclear workforce. The nuclear workforce has seen a downward trend in the availability to fill the pipeline of available workers. And a lot of that has to do with... Like, prior to the Inflation Reduction Act, with the sustainability of the operating fleets, the perception of the communities around nuclear, people just were not following that career path. I mean, they were following career paths around newer technologies, health care, tourism. 

James Chesnut [00:17:43] And so, the nuclear pipeline of workers became depleted, so to speak, for everyone that was considered a greengrass worker. Which, those who grew up through the construction of nuclear, the Baby Boomers, those folks started retiring out and a new nuclear workforce was not coming in. So, part of my goal today is to work with the nuclear community through the Nuclear Energy Institute and through communities that are developing trade schools for power plant technology, things like that. We're trying to have some career awareness as well as creating pipelines for people to find their way back into the nuclear industry. 

James Chesnut [00:18:27] Back in the early 2000s, I think it was... The technologies around the world today require people to go out and get four-year college degrees, right? And schools started moving away from things like shop and shop fabrication. And it started influencing high-school students, rather than go into vocational schools, go to four-year degrees. And I think we're trying to overcome that concept now where we are advocating for those who are in high schools that... 

James Chesnut [00:19:08] The kinds of careers that we have to offer are not alternative careers. These are good career-sustaining, good-paying jobs. You can definitely have a lifetime of work, raise a family, live in a community for a long term and basically have a good opportunity to reach retirement being a good craftsman. 

Phoebe Lind [00:19:36] Absolutely. I mean, the success of many of these projects that we talk about all the time... And there are plenty of businesses now that are very excited, from X-energy to ones all over the US and the world... It's critical that we have a workforce that can actually support those projects or else we're not going to see that clean energy coming online anytime soon, especially if we have to wait years and years for people to get trained up on actually how to build and construct these projects. 

Phoebe Lind [00:20:04] That said, what inspired this passion of yours? Was it more from your background and how much joy and success you found from your career starting out as a craftsperson? Or, is it something where you saw a problem in the industry and said, "I can be the person to help solve this?"

James Chesnut [00:20:25] Well, it's a combination of both. Being in the role that I'm in, my responsibility is to bring nuclear workers to the nuclear facility for their refueling outages. We started seeing a significant decline, not only in the pipeline of available workers, but in the skillsets that workers had who were coming to work for us. In other words, they lacked certain components because they just did not get that type of skilled experience through their family, through their community, through their schools. So, that was one thing that got me highly involved with addressing skillset around nuclear workers. 

James Chesnut [00:21:09] The next thing was the training and career awareness. It's like, people did not know that nuclear was starting to grow in regards to helping the US reach its decarbonization goals. People did not realize that nuclear could be a significant part of providing that and providing clean energy. So, career awareness has been a big piece of my work, especially with the Nuclear Energy Institute and some of the things that we're trying to do to advocate for not only nuclear, but nuclear careers. 

Phoebe Lind [00:21:48] So, what do you think some of the winning strategies will be to encourage new people to join the nuclear workforce? Have you started implementing any of those strategies yet? 

James Chesnut [00:21:59] Yes, we've been highly engaged with educational institutions around where we're located, around nuclear plants where we are doing work. I'm involved specifically in one in Arizona, where we work directly with high-school students and the parents to let them know there's a very large clean energy nuclear facility right here that their graduating class could have opportunities to go to work at, learn a good career, learn a good craft, and not even have to leave the state of Arizona for a good job. 

James Chesnut [00:22:40] A couple of things that we are doing is trying to find ways to help people get into nuclear quicker by addressing training, training qualifications. When I was growing up through the nuclear industry, it took three years to go from an unskilled worker to a skilled worker. And with today's ability to have quicker access to information, more technology around the tools that we use... You know, three years... Kids today, after a year, they want to know that they have achieved their goal and they're looking for their next goal. I mean, we just have to find ways to get people more qualified, quicker, and get them more competent in the work that they're doing. 

Phoebe Lind [00:23:27] Yeah, I can absolutely see how, especially younger, generations would be more interested in nuclear from a climate perspective, especially. That was my background. I was interested in climate change and clean energy, more broadly, and that's how I came to nuclear. What kinds of responses are you seeing from these programs that you have with educational institutions, like these high-school students who... I had no idea that I would be working in the nuclear industry now when I was 14 years old. 

James Chesnut [00:23:56] Well, that's just it. As we're starting to engage these facilities and advertise for these types of careers, that's one of the responses that we're seeing, especially from the parents. Because they did not know these type of careers were available to them or to their kids. Otherwise, they probably would have been advocating more for that. Because most of the kids these days... And I've raised several kids myself. Not only my own two boys, but several others. And and if I had not been able to give them information, they would never know that there was an opportunity that existed there. Most of the kids these days, their environment's around tourism. It's around technologies, around gaming. It's around industry and health care. That's exactly what they see. It's manufacturing, it's retail. And I just see this in my community. 

James Chesnut [00:24:56] With me being able to talk to them about the availability of energy-type careers. You know, working as a carpenter, learning how to be a welder, learning how to be a painter, learning how to be an insulator... Things that do not require four-year degrees to be able to be very skilled and skilled quickly. That's exactly what they're looking for, "How can I get a job out of high school and be able to start living a life that I want to see for myself?"

Phoebe Lind [00:25:29] Do you think your boys will also follow in your footsteps and continue on the family tradition of working in nuclear? 

James Chesnut [00:25:36] Well, it just so happens that... I have two sons of my own, and both of them pursued nuclear careers. With my knowledge of the career paths for them, I was able to help them get through it a lot quicker. I did have the opportunity to raise three other boys who had come to our family for a variety of reasons. All three of those boys right now have nuclear careers as well, as well as others who they're friends with. I mean, the word gets out that they're working at this big nuclear plant, and then the friends go, "How do I get involved with that?" "Well, you know, you give James a call. He can help you."

Phoebe Lind [00:26:20] It sounds like you were extremely persuasive, then. It sounds like you're the perfect advocate for continuing to grow the workforce. When you were going through your career, you could show people that nuclear was safe through your own experiences. And now with this new passion of yours, you can show just how successful you could be in nuclear and say, "Don't just look at me. Look at all these other people I've influenced." That's fantastic evidence right there. 

James Chesnut [00:26:47] Absolutely. 

Phoebe Lind [00:26:49] But also looking to the future, there's been a lot of really great news coming out of COP 28. We had a couple of members of our team who were there. One thing that I was really excited to see were these new commitments to scaling up nuclear energy. Which again, workforce will have a major impact if we can actually achieve that. The US was one of a number of countries that pledged to triple nuclear capacity by 2050. What impact do you think these commitments in COP 28 will have on the nuclear industry? 

James Chesnut [00:27:29] I've read some of that around the commitments that they're looking for. They're looking for for countries to get engaged around clean energy, correct? That commitment means that they're advocating for clean energy. They're advocating for the ability to generate energy clean. So, that commitment means a lot of things. It means working together as organizations to help push through any type of regulation to get nuclear more advanced and get it out there faster. 

James Chesnut [00:28:04] I think with the US Department of Energy driving toward... Especially in the US, driving more toward net zero greenhouse emissions, I think that's going to help the US start looking at their position around how they generate their power. And if you think about generation of power, that also follows along with energy security. And where would we be as country in the area of security if we did not have good, clean energy supporting us? 

Phoebe Lind [00:28:39] Absolutely. And I think we see that argument come up more often, too, especially looking in the context of these international conferences. While climate change is certainly a priority for many governments around the world, they have other commitments they also need to balance, such as their national security, their energy security, and how their energy ultimately props up their economy at the end of the day. 

Phoebe Lind [00:29:02] Do you think there are any changes that the nuclear industry needs to make in order to meet some of these commitments and continue to support our economy in the way that it has over the last couple of decades? A lot of people don't know that nuclear energy provides so much of the clean energy that we get every day in the US. 

James Chesnut [00:29:27] Well, I think that part of it is that there needs to be more campaigning around nuclear when it comes to talking around clean energy and advocating for the younger generation, especially when they're getting more environmentally conscious around what life looks like for them, 10, 20, 30 years from now. Everyone needs to concentrate on the fact that nuclear energy is clean,it's sustainable energy, and it's secure energy. And I think that's one of the things that Day & Zimmermann has an opportunity to do is to get really involved, especially when it comes to messaging and branding around our nuclear craft careers and what we're doing to help support the nuclear industry. 

James Chesnut [00:30:20] So, if there was a young person who was interested in a nuclear career, what advice would you have for them? 

James Chesnut [00:30:27] My messaging to the people who I talk to today is that nuclear energy is here for the long term. There are great careers that come from supporting nuclear construction, nuclear technologies, nuclear operations, being able to be part of something that is bringing energy security to your communities and to the nation. The messaging that I would give is that these careers, they're easier to get into. They don't require a four-year degree. You can find almost any place in the United States that you want to live, depending on what you're interested to hobby-wise, whether it's surfing on the East Coast or rock climbing in the mountains. You can find a nuclear facility somewhere near those areas that can support not only a good life with your family, but also provide you in an area where you can support raising a family. 

Phoebe Lind [00:31:38] Okay, let's say I'm convinced. I'm a senior in high school and I'm about to graduate this coming spring and I really want a career in nuclear energy. I'm going to move to San Diego because I love to surf. What would you say to that student? What would you say to me, in this case? What are the first steps I need to do to go get that career or where can I learn more? Where could I begin to actually pursue that career that I'm now convinced I want? 

James Chesnut [00:32:09] Well, there are a lot of career opportunities advertised through the utilities that support the states, that support the local areas and local regions. My first thought would be to get online and research the types of careers that are available for you. I mean, nothing says you have to be a craftsperson to work in a nuclear facility. If you want to be a designer, you want to work in IT, you want to work in warehousing, you want to work in operations... There are more careers around a nuclear facility than just working with your hands and working as a craftsperson. 

James Chesnut [00:32:50] At the end of the day, you can actually see that you've done something with your day that made a positive impact for the facility that you're working in. So, for those folks who are applying for those jobs, it's more about understanding what you want to do as a person. Whether you want to work at the facility, whether you want to work in a particular area, just look and do the research. 

Phoebe Lind [00:33:24] Okay, thank you. That's great advice. Now, I can go out and pursue that career. As we start to wrap up here, we like to give our guests an opportunity to end with a final thought or a final message that you want to share with our listeners. What would your final thoughts be? 

James Chesnut [00:33:43] My final thoughts are going to be nuclear is here to stay. We have a lot of opportunity in continuing to maintain the safety and the security of our nation by continuing to help grow our energy sector. And nuclear happens to be a very large portion of that. It is safe energy production. It provides communities with a lot of support. It doesn't require, necessarily, spending four years in college to get an opportunity to have a great career, a great, sustainable career. It provides a good life. Easy to start raising a family, building your own home, and getting started in your community. 

Phoebe Lind [00:34:41] Nuclear, absolutely, is here to stay. I'm certain that will resonate with our listeners. Thank you again so much for your time on Titans of Nuclear today. I hope you enjoyed your interview. Thank you again. 

James Chesnut [00:34:55] Okay, thank you.

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Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Princess Mthombeni, who is the founder of Africa for Nuclear. Princess, welcome so much, finally, to Titans of Nuclear. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:01:07] Thank you so much, Olivia. Hello, everyone. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:10] We're really excited to have you here today. And to kick it off, we want to learn a little bit about you and how you got into the nuclear space. Can you tell us a little bit about your story and what initially brought you to nuclear and why you stayed? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:01:23] Definitely I can. I have such an interesting story. I work as a nuclear communicator. I'm a nuclear communication specialist for one of the nuclear organizations in South Africa. But I'm also a founder of Africa for Nuclear, which is an advocacy campaign that promotes nuclear as a key contributor to achieving Africa's agenda for sustainable development. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:01:46] How I got into the nuclear industry? It was by mistake because I was out of a job and I was looking for a job. I was very young, and I got a call from a recruiter saying, "You have to go for an interview at this organization." I didn't even know the name of the organization at that time. Then I traveled about 100 km to get to that organization and I first went to the wrong place. And then, when I called the recruiter, I was told, "No, you are still 30 kms away before you get here."

Princess Mthombeni [00:02:21] And then, I got there. The interview was at 10:00. I got there at 2 p.m. I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm exhausted. I'm like, "I don't even know what's happening here. This doesn't even look like a legit company." And then, there's security clearance access that I had to go through. And I'm like, "You know what? Let me just do this interview and go back home and never come back here." Then I get in, I do an interview, and I get a call next week saying, "Come back and work." And the rest is history. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:52] And where did you end up working? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:02:54] I ended up in that organization. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:56] Oh, okay. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:02:57] And I'm still there even now because you know when something is a calling for you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:02] Yes, yes. So, you were totally unfamiliar with nuclear at that point?

Princess Mthombeni [00:03:07] Never heard of it. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:08] You never heard of it. And what was it about nuclear that really, once you started working there, got you hooked, that made you want to start an organization like Africa for Nuclear? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:03:18] I realize that there's so much that as Africans we deprived of, information particularly. Especially things that matter to us, things that would change our economy. Because nuclear is one of those things that is really beneficial to the spinup of the economy. And I said to myself, "I will shoulder the responsibility of going out there and educating people about this technology so that they make informed decisions." Because it's one of the best technologies that Africa needs, especially a continent that suffers from energy poverty. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:59] Absolutely, absolutely. And South Africa is the only nuclear nation on the African continent right now, correct? And I know a lot of great nuclear engineers have been educating themselves in South Africa but then they've been leaving for jobs in other countries. So, the more that you can develop more nuclear in South Africa and really create a nuclear culture there like there is in a country like France, I'm sure the better for the longevity of the nuclear program there. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:04:28] For me, it's a sad story because we have South Africans spread all over the world building other countries' economies when their economy is getting destroyed. And I do wish that they can come back home. But the only way for them to come back home is this decision to build nuclear power plants at home so that they come and build in their own country. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:51] Yeah. And what are the current plans to develop new nuclear in South Africa? Is there anything currently underway? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:04:56] There's definitely... There is something on the way. Number one, we have a policy which is due for review. And that policy promotes energy mix which includes nuclear, particularly 2,500 MW of nuclear capacity. In the implementation of that policy, the government has issued out the request for information. And they are in the process of issuing out the request for proposals where they invite bidders to come and pitch. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:26] Interesting, interesting. One of the interesting things about nuclear is that given its carbon-free baseload capabilities, it is not only an energy source for grid scale applications, but it's really great for certain industrial applications that can provide resources like desalination, which I know is also a huge concern in South Africa. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:05:46] It is. We are a water-scarce country. And at some point, Cuba helped us to basically desalinate the sea water. And also, South Africa is among the top four purchasers of new ore in its context of nuclear medicine, globally. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:03] Wow, that's fascinating. And are there any SMRs that are currently looking at developing in South Africa or have made public announcements in South Africa that you're aware of?

Princess Mthombeni [00:06:12] Yes. You know, I always say the story of SMRs started in South Africa with Pebble Bed Modular Reactor. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:18] Yes, of course! 

Princess Mthombeni [00:06:19] Yes, which was put under current maintenance in 2010. So now, every country has an SMR except South Africa, which is a sad situation. But we do hope that soon we are also going to have our own SMR technology. But yeah, SMRs are one of the technologies that we are advocating for because you know that we are mostly powered by coal. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:41] Right. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:06:42] Yeah, so some of those coal power plants are aging and they need to be repurposed. And for me, the best solution is nuclear. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:52] Absolutely. So, tell us a little bit about Africa for Nuclear and what you're trying to achieve and how you started it. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:06:57] It started as a campaign when I just wanted to advocate for nuclear problems on the African continent, obviously looking into different stakeholders. But the main stakeholders were policymakers, the government people, because we need a political role. And once we have that political role, I believe we can achieve just about anything. But also, we need to advocate members of the public to join into the fight, fighting for nuclear problems on the African continent. So, that's how it started. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:07:28] And then, it grew into a nonprofit organization. Now, what we have achieved as Africa for Nuclear is that it's recognized globally. I mean, it's known. Many people know Princy from Africa for Nuclear. Even the government at home, they're getting familiar with Africa for Nuclear. And I think that's basically what I want. But for me, if I say Africa for Nuclear has achieved something it will be the day when I see the first concrete being poured for a nuclear power plant anywhere else in Africa. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:08] Yeah, so you guys don't just focus on South Africa. You're looking at any African country that is interested in building nuclear. And where are you seeing a lot of interest right now? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:08:18] I'm seeing a lot of interest in Ghana. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:19] Interesting. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:08:21] Ghana is pushing. And I think Ghana will have an SMR before anyone else in Africa. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:27] That's fascinating. How long ago did you launch this campaign, initially? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:08:33] Since 2021, so it's kind of new. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:37] Okay, great. Yes, so there are lots of opportunities still. Well, that's really interesting. And I know there's also interest in Nigeria and in some of the North African countries as well. I know Egypt has a lot of interest. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:08:48] Egypt is building. Oh, yes. Thank you for mentioning this. Egypt is currently constructing a nuclear power plant. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:54] Wow, that's very exciting. That'll be great. And yeah, I mean, providing that energy security is so critical and nuclear is such a valuable resource. Also, I believe a lot of uranium is mined in African countries already, right? Is that correct? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:09:11] It is mined in them. I know about uranium, yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:14] That's a nice story of bringing the resources back to the places that they're coming from. Well, that's fascinating. So, why are you here at WNE? What is your role here today? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:09:25] Firstly, I have to say it's my first time here and I'm loving it. I'm here because I was invited by the organizers to come and chair a panel session on advancing nuclear through sustainable territorial and sustainable development as well as digitalization. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:40] That's very exciting. And have you had any sort of very critical meetings or conversations here? What has your experience been? Do you feel like this is a really valuable conference to attend? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:09:52] I think it is especially for businesses and people, countries that want to build and want to meet this and to see how these different technologies work, and I think it's best for them. And for me, I think it's best to see how these mockup models are built. I also try to help African countries to have this mockups so that they go to the public and educate the public because seeing is believing. If I take a mockup of a reactor and show people how it works, they'll start believing. I haven't been here before, but from what I heard is that it's good this year. Because even students are coming from the first day where as previously, they only came on the last day. And I'm so happy that tomorrow I'm addressing students. I can't wait. 

Olivia Columbus [00:10:41] Yes. Yes, absolutely. This is my second time here. It's definitely bigger this year, way more people. It's really great to see all these folks from the nuclear industry come out especially given the COP meetings next week. I know there was some concern, maybe, that people wouldn't be able to make it, but it seems like that hasn't really stopped very many people. So, that's really exciting.

Princess Mthombeni [00:11:03] It is. I was saying, "There's so many people here." It's fascinating. And to think that all of us tomorrow... I'm flying to COP tomorrow evening. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:12] Oh, great. Great.

Princess Mthombeni [00:11:12]  There's so many people. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:13] I know, it's sort of "everyone's traveling together," almost. So, what are you going to be doing at COP?

Princess Mthombeni [00:11:19] I'm going to be making nuclear part of the script. Because we know it's a scripted event, but yeah, I just want nuclear as part of the script. And it has worked before because we managed to get nuclear in the green taxonomy of Europe. So, I hope we achieve something at this COP as well. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:36] Yeah. And so exciting that nuclear is such a big part of COP this year. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:11:40] It is. I can't wait for the pledge, the American pledge. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:43] Yes, yes. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:11:44]  We hope to be unveiled. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:44] Yes, I know our team is heavily involved and is working on some things there. They're excited to be attending and excited to be seeing all the other folks from the nuclear industry who we get to talk to every day. It's been great to see how the government of the UAE has been so supportive. Obviously, they have an incredibly successful nuclear program. They're really such a great example of building a program from scratch and how you can do that. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:12:09] And finish it on time. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:10] Finish it on time, on budget. We've done some great podcast episodes with them about that. So, I highly encourage everyone to go listen listen to those. I'm very excited to hear that you're going to be in Dubai as well. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:12:22] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:24] So as we wrap up here, I want to give you the opportunity to share your thoughts on your vision for the future of nuclear, both in South Africa, on the African continent, but also globally. Where do you hope we can take this technology? What do you hope we can achieve from it? 

Princess Mthombeni [00:12:41] First, my vision for Africa is that at least let us try and and focus on addressing the energy poverty. And let us make nuclear a part of the energy mix. By saying part of the energy mix, I'm saying let's consider all technologies that have worked in developed nations because we cannot reinvent it all, but we can think of things that have not worked somewhere else. So, let's think of things that have worked in developed nations. And nuclear has worked. Yes. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:13:11] And globally... I mean, they are speaking about net zero carbon emissions by 2050. And how else are you going to achieve that without including nuclear as part of the energy mix? That's just my vision to say, "Let's work towards the target of net zero carbon emissions by 2050."

Olivia Columbus [00:13:30] Absolutely. Well, Princess, it was such a pleasure having you on. You are our most requested guest today. We had several people come over and ask us when you were coming, so I'm so glad we made it happen. Thank you so much for joining us on Titans of Nuclear. 

Princess Mthombeni [00:13:41] Thank you, Titans of Nuclear. This is long overdue, by the way. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:44] Yes, absolutely. Glad we got it done. 

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Sarah Howorth [00:00:57] Welcome to Titans of Nuclear. Today, I'm here with Myrto Tripathi, who is the President and Founder of Voices of Nuclear. Welcome. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:01:06] Thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure and a great honor because, Titans of Nuclear... I've been there for a long time. It's a little bit humbling to be invited to a podcast that's called Titans of Nuclear. I'm not sure I feel like a titan quite yet, but hopefully one day. 

Sarah Howorth [00:01:25] Well, we certainly think you are and it's a pleasure to have you on. Let's go ahead and just get started by talking about your background and how you ended up in nuclear. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:01:36] That's a good question and generally rather long story, but I'll try to make it short. When I left school, I very much wanted to change the world and every single piece and bits of it, but couldn't decide if I had to start with the pandas, the hunger, the wars, the sanitations, the gender equality or whatnot. There were way too many issues, so little time. I early on decided that energy was probably the root cause and the root enabler, the greatest enabler, for all of those causes at the same time. And if I could manage to bring energy to people, then not only would they be enabled to achieve all those things, but also they would be enabled to make their own choices without me having to direct what they were doing or not doing. Hence, my first orientation towards energy. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:02:33] Naturally, I found my way to nuclear energy because I'm French and the nuclear energy sector was something pretty important and exciting. Still at the time... I'm talking very early 2000s here, even if the atmosphere, the public opinion around it was not so good. Still then. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:03:01] I worked for 10 years for Areva, the front end of the fuel sample, mining, chemistry enrichment, then fuel manufacturing and design. I was Market Strategy Director for Worldwide Areva, which is now Framatome. And then, I ended my career in 2014 in charge of conducting the negotiating teams for selling the third-generation nuclear power plant, the EPR. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:03:35] And so, I was a salesperson, so to speak, a pretty strategic one, but still a salesperson, until I realized that as an engineer and as a business developer, my role was not so important and not so useful because everything depended on public acceptance. The political decision, the financing, the startup of the projects, everything. And if you didn't have public acceptance, then you didn't have projects. And you could be as smart and dedicated and engaged as you wanted, those power plants would never see the light and you would never bring energy to people while ensuring their environment was preserved and the climate was stabilized. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:04:22] So that's when I left Areva, just prior to the Paris Agreement and the COP 21 and joined the UN Global Compact to mobilize industry, business around the climate negotiations to try to make sure that the solution providers would be part of the organization. I worked for the climate negotiations for three to four years. Then was very, very disappointed by what I found there. I apologize, and I'm sorry to say that. Because I essentially met a lot of people who were really enthusiastic and were doing really great work, but were little interested, or little did they realize that the technologies they were advocating for didn't always work, or not quite yet. And they had a pretty dogmatic approach to all these things. And in particular, nuclear was a complete taboo. Completely absent from anything environmental, climate-related. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:05:29] And it threw me off entirely. I was pretty desperate. It's one I touched for myself, what we now call the famous generation despair toward climate change. I went through that myself for a short period. But I guess that's a question of character. It didn't last very long, and I decided to take it upon myself to start an NGO, a particular NGO to back nuclear and the civil society into the conversation. And making sure... And that was my first mandate... That the contribution of nuclear was clearly and largely recognized as a key contributor to the energy transition worldwide. And I'm happy today because I think I'm at the end of a first season, that mandate, because it's achieved. And what we see today is I think we can say it worked. 

Sarah Howorth [00:06:36] That's amazing. It's so interesting. And how did your background, engineering, sales and going through all of this translate finally into Voices of Nuclear? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:06:47] In many ways, I think, because when you are trained in sales, you learn to understand what your counterpart needs. You try to put yourself in the shoes of the people you're talking to and you actually develop communication skills. And a lot of engineers tend to think that communication is just a side or a secondary skill. I'm quite convinced now that it's not. That engineers, technicians, scientists need to stop despising too much these kinds of communication skills, because it depends on how we communicate to people those technologies that they will choose to adopt them or not. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:07:40] So, you can be an engineer and develop the greatest technology in the world, like nuclear in my mind is, and then it's being rejected, not used and left aside. And what's the point? So technology, it's nothing else but science applied, made and put to work. But then, we need all that effort of convincing and communicating which we put to use. So, you want science to be put to use? Let's do those podcasts you do. Let's get that civil society working. Let's get that communication going. So, I think that helped a lot. That was a very important aspect of things. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:08:20] And the engineering part of your question... I think translating into a thirst for rigor and a lot of expertise, even in something that was communication, NGO, and civil society, you can be dancing with a polar bear in the street while providing very sourced numbers, while being very thorough and rigorous in every claim you make. And I think the combination of the two is what made the successes of Voices. 

Sarah Howorth [00:08:54] Right. So, tell me a little bit more about the current work of Voices and what the mission and vision is there. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:09:03] So, the first objective we gave ourselves when we created the Voices back in 2018 was what I mentioned earlier, achieve the recognition of nuclear energy as a key contributor to the energy transition and the fight against climate change. To do that was a lot of changing the conversation, acting on the messenger in addition to the messaging next to populations. Making sure the balance, risk benefits, was clear in the mind of people so that citizens could make their own decisions while having the right facts in their hands. And that includes trusting the citizens with that choice. And when we realize that people actually do make pretty rational decisions once they're being fed with whatever facts, then they are able to balance out their own interests and to make the decision. But you have that trust in them. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:10:06] And so, there's been a lot of pedagogy. There's been a lot of media, street action, influencing political and decision makers and so on to reach the point where we are today. We are realizing now that... I think with the industry and with the public opinion, we've managed that. We're pretty happy and we consider it a great success and that the job has been done. And now we're embarking on a new journey, hopefully, what I call Season Two of the Voice of Nuclear, which is now to help the projects gain of ground. Because now nuclear is on paper, most of it, and it's strong enough to make sure that those plants start producing that famous low-carbon energy we've been talking about so much. 

Sarah Howorth [00:11:00] Right, absolutely. I picked up a pamphlet from your area earlier today and I was wondering what an energy transition scenario is. I was reading about those in it. And I'm wondering what is the Voices scenario and how is it different? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:11:19] Oh, well, thank you very much for this question. We have indeed produced, in-house... So, I need to remind here that we're only volunteers. So, that's quite a huge effort coming from us. We produced an energy scenario for France, 2050, based on the realization that all the scenarios that were up for debate prior to new decision making at the French and European level on energy mix in our minds were flawed. Were deeply flawed because they were relying on hypotheses that were way too risky and way too wishful thinking for us. And as citizens, what we wanted was to make sure that the energy transition would see the light. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:12:11] And we've seen a lot of relying on innovative technologies that were not very mature, not industrialized. There were no supply chains associated to it. Natural resources consumption.... Of the charts, as if everyone would have more than 100% granted of those resources for their own use while there was a lot of competing uses actually in place. They were relying on levels of sobriety for the populations that are nowhere to be seen when we look around us. They were relying on potential relationships and collaborations between countries in a geopolitical future, close and far, that again, were not so clear. And so, we thought all those were a lot of uncertainties. And we thought that those scenarios would not actually reflect what would be a credible future. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:13:19] So, we made a scenario where first we decided that it would not be a question of more renewables or more nuclear. It would be a question of taking all the low-carbon energies and using them exactly to what they know how to do. You don't sleep on a stool and you don't sit on a bed, but those are different devices for you to rest. So, same thing with the energies. They don't have the same impact on the grid. They don't provide the same services. So, we need to put them exactly where they need to be. We need to have all low-carbon sources. That means nuclear, but that also means hydroelectricity, pump and storage, solar, wind, geothermal. And we need to use them side by side to what they know how to do best. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:14:09] All those were hypotheses that we took, saying we want mature technologies, we want realistic hypotheses and then we will see if it passes or not. Do we manage to succeed? And we do; we do. The very good news is that we made what we call the "no bullshit scenario." Sorry, for my French. And we did the most pessimistic scenario we could imagine and decided we would put progress before innovation. Innovation is great; progress is better. And we would see if we would actually succeed in reaching net zero while providing energy to people. And we do. So, it's a very optimistic result to a pessimistic scenario. 

Sarah Howorth [00:14:59] That's amazing. And let's talk a little bit more too about how Voices communicates with the public. Earlier you mentioned a polar bear dancing in the streets, and if people are familiar with you already, they might know what that means. But what's the symbolism there for people who don't? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:15:17] Well, the polar bear, first, was an idea that did not come from the Voices originally. The pro-nuclear community is a small one, but very diverse and dispersed worldwide. Eric Meyer, who is the head of Generation Atomic that you may know came up first with that idea which we thought was brilliant. And we love good ideas and we love to put our friends forward, so this is why we used it and reused it again. Because it's a great way to communicate to populations that did not associate, nuclear with climate and with the environment that we reclaim those symbols. That the youth can be pro and imagined this to be an old technology because it has very concrete and very clear benefits for its future. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:16:20] And we need to consider that whatever works and actually provided results that we can measure, that we can see, that we can enjoy, is something that we need to push forward and continue. Because nuclear energy is not a technology, it's physics. And you can do millions of things with physics and it can take you forward forever. It's a very enthusiastic way of seeing things. So, using those symbols that mean already a lot to people and explaining to them why it makes sense, why those symbols are naturally also ours, is a great and actually an easy way to get the conversation started. 

Sarah Howorth [00:17:09] Right. That's a great point and a great way to describe it. And some other really interesting things that you all have here is a sticker, for those who are watching on video. It says that "Nuclear is dangerous for fossil fuels." Can you explain that a little bit more as well? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:17:29] So, that's how we try to do things at the Voices, which is to take very simple and straightforward formulations to explain some very rigorous concepts behind it. And the one behind this one is to say that today there is no other form of energy than nuclear that's capable of displacing fossil fuels anywhere at all times. If you take the set of criteria of having low-carbon, small environmental footprint, always available, anywhere geographically energy on the planet, only nuclear answers that set of criteria. And the other energies that answer that set of criteria, but they are very high carbon content, are fossils. So, you cannot degrade, or you will have the hardest time to create the level of service you provide humanity. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:18:43] I mean, humanity has enjoyed a certain level of service thanks to the energy the Industrial Revolution has been able to provide it. And we discovered living long lives, enjoyable lives with leisure, with cultural and intellectual pleasures, with time on our hands to enjoy our children and to raise them and so on, etc., etc. Not go hungry, not be sick... I mean, all of those are very important things, right? So, we're not going to degrade the level of service. And if you don't replace the service of the fossil fuels with rendering humanity by something at least equivalent and why not even better, you're just not going to do it. People are just not going to run with it. And considering we also like all democracies and we also like what the kinds of systems we've achieved and are always making demonstrations that we can take us even further, we have to understand... 

Myrto Tripathi [00:19:48] And I know it's a little bland and I know have been called out a little bit before because of this, but I'm pretty convinced that the path forward is what I call the nuclear scene. Where fossil is essentially going to be replaced by nuclear and the proportion of the world's energy mix will remain with renewables maintaining 20% of the total. And in renewables, of course, that includes hydroelectricity, which is a very important renewable energy. And I exclude biomass, please, because I only want the low-carbon ones. And all the fossils are going to be replaced by some generation, some technology that's nuclear-based. So, I am a nuclear scene advocate because I think that's where the physics of it takes us. 

Sarah Howorth [00:20:49] Yeah, I love that. And as we begin to wrap up, I want to ask you what your vision personally or maybe Voices of Nuclear sees for the nuclear industry 10, 20, or 30 years down the line. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:21:09] That's a good question. Well, I express myself for myself, but maybe also a little bit for the Voices of Nuclear because it draws on the principles we would like to put forward up to now and hopefully in the future. The nuclear industry will have a bright future. There's almost no way around it. It's needed; it's required. There are actually little alternatives. And the fact that there are little alternatives is not bad news, it's a good one, because it's a good technology. It's a good technology with lots of benefits and manageable risks. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:21:47] Now, what I would be more worried about is maybe the next five or ten years. Why? Because the situation towards the world's public opinion, the decision makers, the level of understanding and familiarity of the populations with nuclear is still very fresh. It's still very unstable and fragile. We need to consolidate that a lot and it is going to take time. And I wouldn't want the nuclear industry to become too confident too quick and to start making the mistakes that some other technologies have made to just ride, surfing the waves... That's an expression we have in French. I don't know if you have it in English as well. 

Sarah Howorth [00:22:46] Yeah, it translated.

Myrto Tripathi [00:22:50] Okay. And you enjoy the hype, right? And then, you maybe start making claims that are a little bit too forward and then take the risk of losing the hard-won credibility that nuclear enjoys today. So, coming from people like myself as a volunteer full time, which is a very, very important effort... I've been working for nuclear to regain that credibility, for the industry to regain that credibility and not to be discarded as a non-player. I am asking the nuclear industry to take its responsibility now and to just not forget too quick and run too fast. It is a bright future out there, so no need to be over-optimistic in what we're saying. I think we can just tell the truth. We can be reasonable and cautious because that's already very positive, much better than anything anyone else can propose. And it's already a very, very good value proposition. So, no need to overdo it. Just be who you are. Do what you know how to do, do it well, and it can only go very well. 

Sarah Howorth [00:24:18] That's a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Myrto, for your time and for coming on Titans of Nuclear today.

Myrto Tripathi [00:24:23] Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me. It was a great time. And it's a great setting and situation to have that conversation. Because, yeah, I think we actually did it. So, well done, all of us. 

Sarah Howorth [00:24:39] Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:24:41] Thank you.

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Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Grace Stanke, who is currently Miss America and is a very accomplished nuclear engineer. Grace, welcome back to the podcast. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:06] Well, thank you so much. So excited to be back on Titans of Nuclear. I know so many people that listen to it. It's awesome. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:12] So glad to hear that. You've been on the podcast before and we won't go too deep into the stuff you've already covered, but we just want to quickly have you recap your background and how you got into nuclear. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:23] Yeah, I'm Miss America 2023 right now, so I'm in this position to help advocate for nuclear, right? The unique thing about being Miss America is I'm working with a totally separate demographic from what the nuclear industry typically reaches, which allows for a lot more different conversations to happen in terms of changing public perception. So, that's the main goal of my year as Miss America and advocating. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:44] How I got into nuclear overall... I'm still a student right now. I'm in my last semester of school to graduate. But I got into it out of spite. My dad told me not to go into it. And as a 16-year-old teenage girl, your first instinct when your dad tells you not to do something is to go and do it, and that's what got me into it. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:59] But what I say is, what kept me in it is the fact that I learned that this industry literally has the ability to change the world. It has the ability to cure cancer. It has the ability to create clean, reliable energy for Americans to use and people all over the globe to use. And I just kept learning about it. I'm like, "Why are more people excited about this? Why aren't more people dreaming about nuclear?"

Olivia Columbus [00:02:18] Yeah, absolutely. I think this week here at WNE, we've just constantly heard the concept reiterated of "energy access is so critical." Clean energy, energy security... Those are all important aspects, but really, providing energy for those who don't have it is so critical, and nuclear is the best and most sustainable way to do that. 

Grace Stanke [00:02:37] Exactly, exactly. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:39] So, when you set out as Miss America, what were some of the goals that you set for yourself in terms of educating folks about nuclear? 

Grace Stanke [00:02:47]  It's so interesting to think back about where I was about 11.5 months ago after becoming Miss America, right? My main goals were really... I set some parameters of what I wanted to achieve as Miss America with wanting to interact with "X" amount of people. I wanted to travel to... I believe I had five different countries. Because I believe that the United States of America is a superpower, right? I think Miss America should have the ability to represent the United States as well, which I've been able to do that. 

Grace Stanke [00:03:12] The United States Department of Energy invited me as the honorary delegate to attend the International Atomic Energy Agency General Conference. Which I was sitting there and I'm like, "Oh my God, what did I get myself into?" But it was so cool because what I've realized that I've been able to achieve this year is to make sure that youth have a voice and young women have a voice at the table. 

Grace Stanke [00:03:32] As I sit in these international conferences and look at who's making the decisions, I realize that the people who are making these decisions aren't going to be around to run the plants when they're fully constructed, right? There's just a certain reality of that. So, it's been really incredible to make sure that young people still are heard, still are valued, and still are being considered in this equation when we're looking forward to years like 2050 and 2060 when we set these carbon goals. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:55] Absolutely. And I hear you'll be attending the COP conference next week? 

Grace Stanke [00:03:57] Yeah, so I have to go back to the States and then I go back to Dubai. So, I'm like all over the place, but I'll be at COP, yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:03] That's very exciting. And it's so exciting to see nuclear featured at COP this year. I know that's something that hasn't had as much of a voice as it should have in years past, but this year with COP being hosted in the United Arab Emirates, which is a nuclear country, it's so great to see that. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:20] Think back to the last year. Is there anything that really stands out? Any example of when you sort of shared your story of why nuclear energy is this incredible, incredible tool? Is there something that sticks out to you as a moment where you felt like your impact was really being felt by an individual or a group? 

Grace Stanke [00:04:37] Well, I want to share a story about... Actually, a social media post that I made. Because social media is something anybody can do. And I want to emphasize that for the listeners. This is not something that's specific to me, because I know the listeners can do this too, right? 

Grace Stanke [00:04:50] I made a social media post about cooling towers and about how it's water vapor and it's not radioactive material coming out of the top of that. Which is something that I feel like in the nuclear industry, we're like, "Okay, yep, we've been over this." Well, that video has already gotten over 5 million... I think it's at 5 million views; I'd have to double check. It's like either 4.8 million or 5 million. 

Grace Stanke [00:05:10] And the thing is that there was tons of engagement on the post. The candid discussions that happened in that comment section, the amount of DMs that I got of people saying, "Hey, I'm thinking about going into a career like nuclear now because of this post or because of this series of posts that have been made. Like, thank you." That's something that... A little bit goes a long ways. And that's true in nuclear. We know a little bit of fuel goes a long ways in terms of producing energy, but a little bit of words and a little bit of action can go a long ways in terms of convincing people as well. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:41] Yeah. And so much of the fear around nuclear comes from misconceptions. 

Grace Stanke [00:05:45] Exactly. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:46] So, the more that we can correct those misconceptions... I think, obviously there are always going to be people who are emotionally driven against nuclear and it's not always easy to change those emotions, but if you can just change folks' misperceptions and educate them on why nuclear is safe, why the waste isn't scary and put it on the same level playing field as other energy sources I think you can do a lot. 

Grace Stanke [00:06:10] Exactly. And that's something anybody can do, really. That ability to educate... We've got this wonderful, wonderful thing called the internet, right? It is there; it's available. I encourage anybody and everybody to be their own advocate. 

Grace Stanke [00:06:22] I know Thanksgiving happened last week, but I've said it since the beginning of my year. In all honesty, start your family Thanksgiving fight. The conversation of changing these misconceptions starts in your own home; it starts in your own circle. You can be the one neutron that starts the chain reaction, if that makes sense, right? You have that conversation with your aunt and your aunt tells her kids. And then, her kids go to school and tell them about how cool this science is that they learned about from their aunt's niece or nephew or whatever it may be. And that's something that is so cool, is everybody has that ability to do that. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:52] Yeah. And you shared another point that I think is so important to drive home which is this idea that young people need to be engaging and working in nuclear. That is so critical. I mean, this conference has been a great example. There have been students here the last few days. And to see so many young people just even representing their companies has been really exciting. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:12] They are the future, we are the future. I mean, you and I are there. And I think we're also seeing a younger generation really starting to get excited about nuclear, and that is what is so inspiring to myself and, I think, to a lot of the folks who I work with and who I know in the space. 

Grace Stanke [00:07:33] Yeah. It was really crazy because talking about this and how young people are excited about nuclear... So, I am so used to battling... Not battling, but talking about Chernobyl, talking about Fukushima, talking about spent fuel, and talking about safety. Those are the four topics that I spend most of my time discussing with the general public. That's where concerns lie. That's where concerns exist, which are all completely valid. That is a completely valid concern to have. For someone outside the industry, those look like scary things. 

Grace Stanke [00:08:00] But it was really crazy because I was giving a presentation to middle schoolers in September and I started talking about Fukushima. And let me tell you, I looked at them and they were looking around at each other like, "This lady's on something right now." And I was like, "Oh my God." It hit me. I'm like, "Do you guys even know what Fukushima Daiichi is?" And they don't. 

Grace Stanke [00:08:19] But this is so important to recognize because this allows for us as the current people in the industry to provide that crucial first impression of what nuclear is. We can talk about the whole picture. We can talk about the goods, the bads. We can talk about what it's like to be an employee in nuclear. As long as we're open and honest about it. That's what we need. That's what those middle schoolers wanted. And we sat and talked about nuclear all day long. I had all these like, fuel pellets that were 3D printed. They went insane for those fuel pellets afterwards. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:49] That's so interesting. It is a really interesting concept because nuclear is so simple, really. 

Grace Stanke [00:08:54] It is. Boiling water. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:55] It's something that you should be able to explain to kids. I know we always love to say it's just water passing over a hot rock, right? 

Grace Stanke [00:09:01] Yeah, fancy hot rocks boil water, steam rises, turns a turbine. That's what I use.

Olivia Columbus [00:09:04] Yeah. It should be something that's so simple we can teach the kids, yet it seems so scary and so complicated. And that sort of leads me into my next topic, which is I would really love to talk to you about the impact you specifically feel like you've had on women in nuclear and inspiring young women to become not just nuclear engineers, but work across the nuclear field. I mean, as someone who's not math and science inclined, I think that was really daunting to me. But understanding that there's a role for everyone in this nuclear sector and anyone who's interested in joining it can and should. 

Grace Stanke [00:09:34] Yes. This is something I say a lot in terms of there's a place for everybody here in nuclear. We need technicians, we need engineers, we need managers, we need legal teams. We need literally anybody and everybody on board to make a nuclear power plant run. But when it comes to specifically women... I've had my fair share of sexism. I've had my fair share of bad experiences. That's just the certain reality of it, unfortunately. And I wish change would happen overnight. But the reality is, it won't. However, what I always ask for is...

Grace Stanke [00:10:04] I had an experience this year where someone was offering me a job. And they said, "Grace, we really want you to come work for us. One, because you're a woman." And I went, "Of all of the things you could have said, you chose that to lead with, my biological makeup." And it is so frustrating to me that women are put in this box because we're a nuclear engineer or because we're involved in this industry in some way, shape or form and we're a woman. It's like we're some mythical unicorn. No, we're not. We're human beings. We have so much more to offer. 

Grace Stanke [00:10:32] And that's something that I think I really can represent as Miss America is showing that not only am I a nuclear engineering student, but I'm also Miss America. I'm also a D1 competitive water skier. I'm also a classical violinist. Like, heaven forbid we're humans with personalities and multifaceted hobbies. That's something that I think has been really crucial to this year in terms of highlighting that women just want to be treated like any other human being, right? Not separated, not isolated, not put on a platform either because of our biological makeup. But making sure that we're receiving fair and equal treatment. And in addition, being respected as a human being in a whole picture aspect. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:09] Absolutely. That's absolutely true. I will say it has been really exciting to see more and more women joining this industry. 

Grace Stanke [00:11:16] Oh my gosh. Every time I see one, I'm like, "Ahh, let's go." 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:20] It's really great to see. And I hope it's a trend that we continue to see and we continue to see it grow, especially young women coming out of school and deciding to pursue nuclear. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:29] So, let's talk a little bit about your next venture. You'll be joining Constellation fairly soon. What specifically are you going to be doing there? 

Grace Stanke [00:11:40] So, I finish Miss America January 14th of 2024, and then I'll be starting with Constellation in March of 2024. I will be doing a very new role, which I hope other companies follow suit in this, because I think every company could benefit from a role like this. Primarily, I will be a core design engineer. I just got my degree, so I'm doing the engineering; I want to learn. I want to keep learning about this industry. I want to be at outages and help with that process, all of those things. So, that's about 60% of the role. 

Grace Stanke [00:12:07] But the other 40% is continuing the advocacy work that I've been doing as Miss America. We've seen the impacts of many, many advocacy groups and many companies putting efforts forward on programs to help promote nuclear. Now it's time that we start defining roles surrounding "let's build more nuclear." Let's start supporting nuclear on a public, external-facing front. Not just an internal, nuclear-to-nuclear front. We need nuclear-to-external facing fronts. 

Grace Stanke [00:12:34] And I'm really excited because I've already got events set up with colleges and with eighth-grade girls in Alabama and in Oklahoma. And all of these things starting right away in February and in March. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:44] That's so exciting. And just to wrap it up... We spoke to you a year ago, you're going to continue your advocacy. What do you hope in one year from now you will have achieved in terms of nuclear advocacy? 

Grace Stanke [00:12:58] The one thing is I do want to see the percentage of women in nuclear increase. I want to see that number go from 14% to like 16%. Because like I said, I know that this change won't happen overnight. I know that it will take time. But I would love to see those numbers start to increase. 

Grace Stanke [00:13:13] Additionally, I want to see ground being broken on building new nuclear. We have done a lot of talking. I have done a lot of talking this year. Let me tell you; let me tell you. 210,000 miles of travel, okay? And I'm at the point where we need to start breaking ground. We need to start building that workforce in terms of construction, making sure we've got qualified construction people working on building these nuclear power plants. And then they can, in turn, maybe potentially work at those power plants in the future. So, those are the main things I want to see within the next year to two years, maybe at the next WNE. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:46] Yes, absolutely. Grace, thank you so much for joining us on Titans. 

Grace Stanke [00:13:49] Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

‍

Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Cyrille Molina, who is the founder and president of OAKRIDGE SAS. Cyrille, welcome to the podcast. 

Cyrille Molina [00:01:05] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:07] Before we jump into OAKRIDGE and everything that you do there, let's talk a little bit about you. Where are you from? Where did you study and how did you get into nuclear? 

Cyrille Molina [00:01:19] I'm from France. I graduated nuclear engineering in the '80s because I wanted to work in nuclear. Even at that time it was not so obvious because there was almost no future at that time for the nuclear sector. It was very still. For instance, in France, we had just finished installing all the units and there was no more new build program. But still as a physicist, I really wanted to enter that sector by passion. 

Cyrille Molina [00:01:53] And after that, I worked some years at the French Institute for Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety, which is a TSO to the French regulator, as a Assessor of Safety of the Nuclear Fuel Cycle Plants in France. And then, I incepted OAKRIDGE in 2002, so that's more than 20 years now. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:20] Interesting. Is that CEA, is that the nuclear regulator that you were working with? 

Cyrille Molina [00:02:25] In France, that regulator's name is ASN. And its TSO, Technical Support Organization is IRSN. So, I began there. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:36] Interesting. So when you were there, you worked on the fuel cycle; is that correct? 

Cyrille Molina [00:02:39] Yep. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:41] And is there anything from that experience that led you specifically to creating OAKRIDGE? What was the impetus for launching your company? 

Cyrille Molina [00:02:52] Well, one impetus is the company I was in, working for the IRSN, was acquired by a bigger company and the mood was not the same in the big company of the small company I was in. And so, I decided to quit and to found my own company to work by myself as a self-employed person. But then when I started OAKRIDGE, a few months after that some former clients asked me to do more, and so I needed to hire my first employees to face all the work we had to do. 

Cyrille Molina [00:03:35] And just one year after the inception of OAKRIDGE, there was a big announcement, a decision by Finland to start a nuclear project, Olkiluoto in Finland. So, that gave me a push in the business. And we've managed OAKRIDGE to enter the very first panel involved in the engineering of this new build project. And since 2004, we have continuously worked on the EBR new build project; in France, in Finland, in China, and also in the UK. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:19] Interesting. So just to sum up, what exactly does OAKRIDGE do? Where do you focus? 

Cyrille Molina [00:04:25] We are a 100% nuclear consulting company. We do engineering for the install phase and for the new build projects. We intervene at the different phases of the project, like conceptual design, basic design, through design and commissioning. And then when plants operate, we help them to improve their maintenance and safety by giving advice, doing international benchmarking. For instance, helping them to get the best practices in terms of nuclear safety. 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:05] I must add that nuclear safety is our core business and we are very strong at that. Whether it's deterministic safety or probabilistic safety, we have experience and we like to provide this to our clients. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:25] And how large is your team now? 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:26] The team is almost 60 engineers. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:29] Wow. That's very exciting. 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:31] And we work in some countries... So in Europe, in France mainly, but also with South Korea and South Africa. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:41] Very interesting. So just out of curiosity, because I think often times when we hear about your company, people get very confused because there's also a National Lab in the US with the same name. Is there any connection there, or is it just a coincidence? 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:53] No, it has no connection. In fact, Oak Ridge in the US is in two words; Oak Ridge, Tennessee, which is famous for Oak Ridge National Lab. And my company's name is OAKRIDGE, just one word. The fact is, at the time I founded the company, I was looking for a name with my wife. We had a dictionary and turning the pages I saw "Oak Ridge," the Oak Ridge site. And I said, "Oh, this name is excellent, because for the ones who know the history of nuclear, they know that was one of the secret sites of the Manhattan Project. And so, that's a good sound. Let's stick the two words together, register the name in France, and that's it." 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:47] And now you've become so well-known that people confuse the two. Well, I'm glad we clarified that; we now have it on official record. So, you said you guys work on EBR projects. Are there other types of designs that you guys really specialize in or do you sort of work across? 

Cyrille Molina [00:07:06] Yeah, we have a lot of experience with EBR, and more widely with the PWR reactors. But also, we have skilled people in other technologies such as BWR. We now currently are involved in a new project which is a molten salt reactor. We signed yesterday an MoU with Thorizon. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:31] Oh, congratulations. 

Cyrille Molina [00:07:33] A company from the Netherlands. And they have a concept which is very clever with a molten salt reactor, with some cartridge composing these molten salt reactors. And we'll work with them, of course, in the part which is our main concern which is nuclear safety. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:53] Got it. Interesting. We had Sander de Groot from Thorizon on yesterday, so if folks haven't listened to that episode yet, they should go over and listen to that one as a Part Two. But that's really exciting. So just out of curiosity, is the French fleet primarily PWRs? 

Cyrille Molina [00:08:10] Yeah, the French fleet is PWRs. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:12] Just PWRs. Okay, interesting. Interesting. 

Cyrille Molina [00:08:14] We have 56 reactors operating currently. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:19] Fifty-six, wow. That's crazy. That's so many; that's very exciting. You mentioned that you guys work... Obviously, you did the project in Finland, in Korea, in South Africa. Is it that you work there, or you have engineers there? 

Cyrille Molina [00:08:35] No, we work with them. Sometimes we will send people to the countries. We had people, for instance, in China for two-and-a-half years during the commissioning of the Taishan Plant. In the past, we had people in South Africa near Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant. Currently, we work a lot for Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant in probability safety and accident simulation. 

Cyrille Molina [00:09:04] One thing I would like to add... You may have noticed that the very first company in France to get the ISO 19443 standard, which is the standard dedicated to nuclear safety, was OAKRIDGE in 2020. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:15] Interesting. That's very interesting. So, you guys do a lot of work on the big builds. You've got an MoU with an SMR company. Are there other SMR directions that you're interested in working on further?

Cyrille Molina [00:09:31] Yeah, sure. We have also begun talks with Canadian companies. And also, we have signed yesterday an MoU with a Polish company. So, we want to join our forces to participate with the numerous projects in nuclear in Poland. Among them, there are big units, but also SMR projects. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:57] Absolutely, I think the Polish program is so interesting. There's such a desire to build nuclear there both big and small. And so, I think they're a great example of a country that's really moving towards increasing their share of nuclear. Having just a research reactor right now, but obviously a strong regulatory body and I'm excited to see what happens there. 

Olivia Columbus [00:10:20] In addition to that, we're excited to see nuclear being featured COP next week in the United Arab Emirates. It's so exciting to have the conference in a country that has been so successful with their nuclear program. I think the Barakah Program is something that we should really all be looking to as a way to successfully develop big nuclear projects. 

Cyrille Molina [00:10:44] Yeah, and actually they achieved this after beginning from scratch. In 2009, when it was decided and signed with the current team, there was nothing there. Now it works; it operates. So, it demonstrates that it's possible just to implement a big project with numerous units in a non-nuclear country. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:17] Right. They took a proven design. They built that exact design. Actually, one of my favorite podcast episodes is when we had His Excellency Mohamed Al Hammadi on and he walked us through, really, the process and how they did it. It was so interesting to hear about how they really took the Korean design, very proven, and really stuck to it. And that was, I think, a huge part of the efficiency in building those new reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:46] I know they said yesterday that the last one, I think, is going online at the beginning of next year. And then, 25% of the UAE's power will be nuclear, which is such a fascinating jump to go from 0% to 25% so quickly. So, very exciting to see nuclear heavily featured at the COP events. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:06] So to close us out, in the next 10, 20 years, 30 years even, what do you hope the status of nuclear is globally? And as we head into such a critical time in climate energy security, how do you hope nuclear is used as a tool to help solve those challenges? 

Cyrille Molina [00:12:24] I hope that more and more countries and more and more economic players, such as big industries, will adopt nuclear and remove the coal and fossil fuels like gas. We have good assets to get there from this. We have a young generation, which is very invested now, advocating nuclear and trying to gather more forces around them. So, that's a good point. 

Cyrille Molina [00:13:00] And we have also reorganized the industry here in France to be ready for that big change. In fact, for instance, we say that we need in the next decade to hire 100,000 more people in France. And at the European scale that represents 500,000 people more in Newcastle. 

Cyrille Molina [00:13:23] So, for the next decades, I see that Europe is the place that nuclear will expand more. But other countries in Africa and in South America and in Asia will also enter. And newcomers, they will adopt nuclear because now the game is more open. Thanks to the SMRs, you can access a smaller amount of power and you can also find the money to do that project. So, that's really a game changer, the SMRs. 

Olivia Columbus [00:14:06] Absolutely. Well, Cyrille Molina, thank you so much for joining us here on Titans of Nuclear. 

Cyrille Molina [00:14:09] Thank you so much for Titans of Nuclear and congrats for what you do. 

Olivia Columbus [00:14:13] Thank you, thank you.

Olivia Columbus [00:00:57] We're here today with Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee, who is the head of operations at Dual Fluid. Claire, welcome to the podcast. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:04] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:04] So, before we jump into Dual Fluid and all the work that you do there, we'd love to learn a little bit about you. Where are you from originally and where has your career gone? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:14] I'm originally from France and I studied engineering. First in undergrad, I got an engineering degree from France. You see, I had a little bit of trouble knowing what I wanted to do in life in those days because I was quite good at mathematics, interested in science, but I also wanted to save the world. So actually, I chose an engineering path. And then, I ended up getting a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from the University of Toronto. And then, I did a little bit of academic research, but then I moved towards management consulting. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:53] And so, I lived in Canada for 10 years after my degree. Canada is a really great country, but I really had a longing to come back to Europe. And my husband, being from India, it worked out so well for him. So, we moved to Germany. And then, I was busy with children for some time. I got to work at the Deutsche Bank, in the Economic Department of the Deutsche Bank. And then, I started working more on long-term trends. And then, I moved a little bit with a focus on African countries and also risk. And then, I took a bit of a break. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:02:36] And then by chance, I happened to hear about Dual Fluid. I had had, for a long time, an interest particularly in natural resources and energy. Not a focus, I must say, on nuclear energy, but I was really excited about their projects and wonderful, very promising technology. And that's how I joined Dual Fluid. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:03] Okay, and where is Dual Fluid based out of?

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:03:06] It's officially a Canadian company with headquarters in Vancouver, but most of our activities currently are actually in Germany, in Berlin. We also have some partners in Poland and we are moving gradually towards Africa as well. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:30] Okay, it's very exciting to see a nuclear company operating in Germany, somewhere where we don't see a lot of nuclear right now. And it's really interesting that you came back to nuclear as someone from France, given France's rich nuclear culture. So, let's talk a little bit about Dual Fluid. Can you give us an overview of Dual Fluid's technology? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:03:51] Yes. First, I can just mention that Dual Fluid as a company was created not too long ago, around three years ago, in 2021. But this was following a fairly long period of research, so we didn't start from scratch. 

Olivia Clumbus [00:04:09] Were you guys spun out of a university or a research project in Canada? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:04:12] Actually, a few of the founders knew each other already at the university, so it's mostly German founders. And then, one of them worked in Canada, in Vancouver, the TRIUMF Lab, and that's why one of the founders is also Canadian. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:28] Oh, okay. Got it. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:04:30] Our main technology is a reactor, what we call a dual fluid reactor. It's very innovative in several ways. The main way is that we are using two fluids. So, we are using metallic fuel, liquid, and the coolant is liquid lead. So, this allows us to have a very, very high efficiency. It's fast neutron reactors. So, we are so efficient that we're using most of the density of the uranium. As you know, uranium has a very high density, but most of it is not used in the usual nuclear reactors, so we have the opportunity to be very efficient, which results, of course, in lower costs. So, that very, very briefly describes our technology. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:05:29] We have a couple of reactors in mind. The first one is called the DF-300 with a power of 300 megawatt electric. And a follow-up product will be the DF-1500, as the name says, 1,500 megawatt electrical. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:48] And your fuel comes from recycled fuel, is that correct? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:05:51] Not necessarily, so not at the beginning. But that's... Yeah, this leads me to a third product which we have which is the pyro processing unit, pyrochemical processing unit. It's also a very innovative way of recycling, actually not the used fuel, but also the cladding material and also the downstream waste gas which can also be treated. So, it's a distillation separation process. So, first chlorination and then distillation. And it allows us to separate the long-lived fission products, actinides, from the short-lived ones. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:06:36] So, the first two will be reused, can be reused as fuel. And the rest, of course, it remains, but the problem is tremendously reduced compared to what it is now, because instead of having to store them for thousands or hundreds of thousands of years until the radioactivity reaches acceptable levels, it will be only a few hundred years, and then they will not be more dangerous than natural uranium. So, the first part we can indeed reuse. It's not a must. We can also use, as I mentioned, a mix of uranium and chromium as a fuel, but we can reuse fuel. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:07:21] At the beginning, the DF-300, it will not be as much of the focus, but for the DF-1500, it will be coupled with one of these pyrochemical process unit. And in fact, it will be a closed loop. And we can also use one of these recycling units to treat our spent nuclear fuel and feed it back to also the the DF-300. But in principle, you're right; we can use existing nuclear waste. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:07:49] We have done some calculations, and for instance, the existing nuclear waste in Germany at the moment, we could use it to feed our reactors and this would provide the German population with electricity for about 300 years. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:08] Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. So, you guys describe yourself as a fifth-generation design. Where are you at in terms of the design for the 300 megawatt reactor? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:08:22] So, we are so much more efficient, which leads to low-cost electricity. We are, of course, clean, as is all nuclear. And we are very safe because our process, this technology, is inherently safe in the sense if temperature increases the fluid expands or the metallic fuel expands and then the reaction slows down dramatically. So, it's inherently safe and it's self-maintained. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:08:53] And we have an additional safety feature, which is a plug that melts when the temperature increases and the fuel by gravity just goes down. And so, basically everything stops. So, it's inherently safe and there's an added safety feature to it. So, that's one aspect. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:16] It's also modular. And so, it will lend itself to countries which do not necessarily have much infrastructure…. We are going to start as soon as possible to think of how to produce it in series. We expect to have our first reactors produced in the early 2030s. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:34] Early 2030s, okay. And you guys are just designing the reactor portion of the plant? You're not producing the energy-producing balance of the plant? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:45] Yeah, we focus on the reactor and we have already started in small ways to find partners. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:54] And where are you guys looking to deploy your first designs? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:58] So at the moment, this technology is still a concept. It's time now that we demonstrate that it works. So, we have defined what we call a critical demonstration experiment. It's a critical assembly demonstration reactor. And we've been thinking for some time what would be the best location for us. We want a location where it can be done relatively quickly. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:10:26] First of all, we are a startup; we cannot afford to have too many years in front of us. And secondly, we're anxious to demonstrate our technology and how it can really help basically solve some big problems that exist at the moment in the world, which is power shortage and also done in a clean way. Because we are not only going to produce electricity... 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:10:53] This is something I haven't mentioned, actually, I forgot. It's a very important feature of our technology. It operates at very high temperatures, which means we can produce electricity, but also directly heat... 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:05] Yes. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:05] To produce, for instance, hydrogen and syn fuels. And also, we can provide heat to any industrial process which is needed in the chemical industry to produce cement or glass. So on both fronts, we believe that we can really help decarbonize, for instance, mobility and most industrial processes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:30] Aviation, absolutely. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:32] Yes. And so in the process of finding a location, we looked into Africa, which is a very natural location in terms of power shortages. This is the lowest energy consumption per capita in the world, as you know. And we tried to find the jurisdiction where our technology is supported, and the countries, of course, very open to innovative nuclear technologies. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:58] And we found Rwanda to be a very good location for us. It provides political stability, very high governance indicators. For instance, very low corruption. The business environment is very good. So, it's very attractive in many ways. The rule of law is also very high. And of course, it's growing very fast. The GDP growth has been above 6% for most of the past years. I think it's expected to be above 7% even in the next couple of years. And we have a lot of support from the government. It's very, very eager to increase their energy supply, of course, in an environmental friendly way. Of course, it's looking also at renewable energy, but they need stable, clean energy. And they have made ways, basically, to develop nuclear energy, which is one of their strong mandates. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:06] Interesting. Would that be just for the research facility or is that for the first commercial facility that you guys look to target Rwanda? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:13:13] So first, we have this critical demonstration reactor. This is going to start as soon as we have closed our financing round, which is what we're in the middle of right now. We expect towards the beginning of 2024 to start building it for a couple of years and then to operate it for another couple of years. And after that, we will look at building our first reactor. And it's not clear yet where it will be, but if all goes well in Rwanda, that's one natural choice. And in parallel, we are also looking at some other countries for the next reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:48] Absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned all the opportunities for clean fuels and clean technologies. You know, I think there's so much potential there to decarbonize the globe. And you really hit on a point that I think is so critical and maybe not discussed enough, which is that energy security point. Producing stable baseload energy through nuclear is so critical no matter the nuclear technology. And there are so many people who don't have access to energy, period, not just clean energy. So, if you can start them on clean energy, it's much better than having to move a country off of that to clean energy. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:14:31] Yes, that's right. We are really hoping... You know, Africa, in many ways, has leapfrogged the rest of the world because in some aspects, they started later. But for instance, in mobile telephony, they started later, but then they moved so fast that they are well ahead of many other countries which had started many decades earlier. So, we are hoping... There are already some African countries which have nuclear energy. Only two I believe; South Africa and Egypt. But there's a humongous need, so we are really excited to see them move toward both increasing their power supply in a way that is not producing emissions. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:15:18] And as you know, nuclear energy is not just not producing emissions, but it's also rather environmentally friendly, especially with these small reactors because it's very low resource usage. Actually, since I'm new to the sector, it really shocked me how little is known. Okay, renewable energies are, of course, environmentally friendly in many ways, but I find it's not discussed enough over the whole life cycle. So, these huge windmills... 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:15:51] First of all, I don't personally like to see forests of windmills; I would prefer to see forests of trees. And we don't discuss enough what happens, at least in the public debate, what happens with these humongous metallic structures. It's not trivial. We know that solar batteries, there are some issues in recycling them. But these small modular reactors, they have very low resource usage. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:16] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I always encourage folks to do research on waste... Really how much waste is produced from different energy sources? Because the amount of waste produced by nuclear on a per person or per megawatt capacity is so much smaller than other energy sources. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:16:35] Yes, especially. It's very different to look at the whole life cycle which is what is often missing. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:40] Absolutely, absolutely. And such an important topic that I think we make sure people are aware of. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:47] Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to give you the opportunity to share your vision for our future, our energy mix, and where you hope nuclear fits into that looking 10, 20, 30 years down the road. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:17:02] I think it's inevitable that nuclear will play a larger role given that we need much more energy, I think by a factor of... We did some calculations. By mid-century, I think the yearly consumption will be multiplied by four or five. So, it's obvious we need much more energy which is clean, so low-carbon. Of course there are at the moment, many currents against nuclear. I mean, being in Germany, we are very well aware of that. But I think it's just a matter of time that people will realize there's just no other way. Nuclear energy will be very significant in the energy landscape of the future. There's just no competitor, no valuable competitor. Of course, it will be a mix, but I think the importance of nuclear will rise tremendously by obligation. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:18:03] I think one of the barriers at the moment is, of course, public perception, but I think it's changing. And something else is the legislation which needs also to move to be pertinent for these new reactors. This is also something which we're confronting with and we're helping to develop, especially in countries that at the moment may not have or do not have legislation for the nuclear sector. We hope to also help them leapfrog in this area so that they develop a legislation which is pertinent to these innovative reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:18:49] Absolutely. Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining us today on Titans of Nuclear. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:18:53] Thank you.

Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Sander de Groot, who is the CTO and co-founder of Thorizon. Sander, welcome to Titans of Nuclear. 

Sander de Groot [00:01:05] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:06] So Sander, how did you originally get into the nuclear industry? 

Sander de Groot [00:01:10] So, I graduated as a mechanical engineer, and after a short while in an engineering company, I moved to NRG. NRG is a nuclear research organization and medical isotope producer in the Netherlands and operator of High Flux Reactor in Petten. I've been working there since 2000, for over 22 years. 

Sander de Groot [00:01:27] And in the last few years at NRG, I initiated the molten salt reactor program at NRG. Molten salt reactors became very popular in that period. Of course, these reactors have been operated in the '50s, and after that, basically stopped any developments in this field. But I thought the technology was hugely interesting. So I decided, "Let's initiate a program at NRG."

Sander de Groot [00:01:52] Within that program, an idea emerged for a molten salt reactor, to design and build it in certain way. And within NRG, there was not really a possibility to develop this further, so with the agreement of NRG, we started Thorizon and picked up that concept. We developed it further in my own time, at my own risk, with a number of people who were interested in this. We submitted the patents, got in contact with nuclear industry parties, for example, Orano, which is a major partner for us. And then, we got in contact with investors and we closed a financing round last year's summer. And since then, I'm full time working for Thorizon. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:38] Very exciting. We will dive into all of that in just a moment, but I want to talk a little bit more about NRG and the work you did there. So just for our audience who may be less familiar with NRG... The Dutch NRG, because there is another NRG which is completely separate. They operate the PALLAS Reactor, which the high-temperature flux reactor in the Netherlands. They also provide other support for organizations in terms of things like licensing, is that correct? 

Sander de Groot [00:03:05] Yes, yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:09] Did you work at all on the PALLAS Reactor or were you just very specifically focused on the molten salt program? 

Sander de Groot [00:03:13] No, when I started to work, I was working in this consultancy department of energy. So, I was in the computational engineering field doing structural mechanic analysis, fracture mechanics, safety analysis, and also designed facilities that were put in the High Flux Reactor. And after that, I moved to more project management of irradiations. So, fuel material, irradiations in the High Flux Reactor. And I was a lot involved in high-temperature reactors, basically, at that time. And after that, moved more into the business development side. And from that position, I initiated the molten salt reactor program. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:47] Got it. And so, you guys are doing a lot of the medical isotopes, is that correct? Are they primarily for the Netherlands? Are you guys producing them broadly across Europe? I know in the United States, Canada produces quite a few of our medical isotopes. Are you guys sort of doing that same support in Europe? 

Sander de Groot [00:04:04] Yes. Well, NRG is basically providing 30% of the world demand. So, it's a lot.

Olivia Columbus [00:04:10] Wow. That's really interesting because I know that the Netherlands has, obviously, a fabulous nuclear regulator and nuclear history, but they only have one commercial operating reactor right now. We just had Carlo Wolters on the podcast recently. 

Sander de Groot [00:04:27] Ah, okay. Yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:27] I think he was last week's episode. So, that was wonderful. Carlos from EPZ, for anyone who's not familiar, which is the the nuclear utility in the Netherlands. And then, is the PALLAS Reactor the only other research facility or are there other research reactors in the country as well? 

Sander de Groot [00:04:45] PALLAS is basically a reactor that is currently being constructed. So, it's a replacement of the High Flux Reactor, which is the existing material test reactor and medical isotope production facility. So, yeah, it's a replacement; that's what PALLAS is. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:59] But that's the only other research reactor in the Netherlands, or do you have others? 

Sander de Groot [00:05:02] There's also a smaller university research reactor at Delft University. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:07] Got it. Okay, interesting. Interesting. Well, hopefully we see more commercially operating reactors come online soon in the Netherlands. 

Sander de Groot [00:05:13] Yeah, of course. Carlo has a lot of ambitions, and that's wholeheartedly supported. I think we need it.

Olivia Columbus [00:05:18] Yes, absolutely. Yes. So, back to Thorizon and the work you're doing there. It's a molten salt reactor, right. And about how big is it? 

Sander de Groot [00:05:30] The size that we're currently focused on is 250 megawatt thermal. And with that, we can produce 250 megawatts of steam, which can be then converted into electricity, about 100 megawatts electric. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:41] Okay, so about 100 megawatts. How large of a plot size are you targeting? 

Sander de Groot [00:05:47] Well, we are currently looking at that. Generally, the core is really compact, so it's not that big. So, let's say that the nuclear island should be 30 to 30 meters type of square. But then of course, the turbine island and anything connected to it. But what we are looking at is that the core is this reactor, of course, and then you can connect to many types of different processes that are connected to. For example, so investigating that the energy that's produced is stored in salt. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:18] Oh, right. Yes. 

Sander de Groot [00:06:18] So, our primary system is salt. The secondary system is salt. We can connect to a tertiary cycle of salt where we can store energy. And then in that sense, with all the renewable energies coming up, we can compensate and make use of the flow in demand and supply. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:34] And so, are you guys just designing the reactor system? And then, would you partner with a company like a Malta or something who are doing those storage systems, or are you guys also looking to develop the additional systems as well? 

Sander de Groot [00:06:47] I mean, we're a startup company. So, to be able to build a reactor like that you need thousands of people and we want to do it quickly. So, you cannot do that by just growing as a startup company. At least, we think that is unreasonable. So, what we're trying to do is to team up with partners that have the expertise and people to grow really quick. So typically for something like this, which is outside of the nuclear island, we would team up with somebody else. And also, within the nuclear island we are looking for partnerships within nuclear industry to speed up our progress and accelerate as much as we can. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:18] Absolutely. So, have you built any of those partnerships that you can publicly announce yet? 

Sander de Groot [00:07:22] Well, one of the partnerships that we are working with is Orano. And that's a very important one because we were looking at the reactor, and Orano's particularly interested in molten salt fuel production and also taking molten salt fuel back after use and incorporating that into their reprocessing facilities. So, that is really important because it takes away our concerns in producing the fuel and we can focus on our reactor design. So, that is a very important partnership. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:49] Yeah. And so, are you targeting initial deployment in the Netherlands or are you looking at a lot of different markets? Where are you looking to build your first facility? 

Sander de Groot [00:08:29] We're looking at everything, and then we move with the wave. So, where is the largest interest? So, we're talking to Carlo as well and EPZ. They have a very large site with a nuclear destination, and we're also discussing with them, "Is your site not interesting for a system like ours?" And they're interested, but of course, we're not in any committing stage at the moment. 

Sander de Groot [00:08:49] But for them, with the ambitions to build light-water reactors, they also have concern about how to manage the fuel cycle, how to manage the waste streams that come from it. And our reactor is particularly suited to be able to take the long-lived elements out of spent fuel, using it as a fuel, and in the meantime, reducing all the long-lived waste streams that could come from light-water reactor operation. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:10] Absolutely. Well, that's very exciting. And so, what types of customers... I mean, you mentioned storage as an option, but are you guys looking to deploy at a grid scale or are you guys thinking that you'll have industrial behind the meter customers? What are you looking at for your early deployment? 

Sander de Groot [00:09:30] Basically, what we try to do is to have that reactor operating as long as possible just to keep the economy high. So, one of the customers that could be interesting is an industrial end user that basically needs a 24/7 supply of heat. That's one of the customer directions that we're looking into. And it's the easiest one, because heat is what we produce in any case. If we produce electricity, that can also be used for a certain site, especially if industry starts to electrify hydrogen production, for example. Then, we could also support that 24/7. 

Sander de Groot [00:10:00] If we come to more like the grid, grid stability or customers that have fluctuating demand in combination with the fluctuating supply from renewables, then you come into this idea of keeping a reactor operating continuously but store the heat and use it when the demand is there. So, we're looking at all these options, basically. But the core of the system doesn't change because of that. We're stuck to the 250 megawatt thermal. It's based on our technology. This is what we think we can maximally achieve in a reasonable way, and we stick to that. 

Olivia Columbus [00:10:36] Yeah, absolutely. The Netherlands is interesting geographically because you have some neighbors that are not big fans of nuclear, especially Germany being the biggest one; Belgium as well. What challenges does that pose? But also, what opportunities are there to provide energy generated in the Netherlands to countries that do not have clean baseload power? 

Sander de Groot [00:11:03] Well, at the moment, politically, it's of course a complication. Like, Germany is really anti-nuclear and sticking on that route, so they have influence on European frameworks, on how to implement. So, it's not something that we are actively trying to change. We can't, and it doesn't help the European framework for nuclear. 

Sander de Groot [00:11:24] So we connect to France, we connect to Orano, and we have also set up an office in Lyon to strengthen this relation and make sure that we make the most out of what is present in the Netherlands and in France to accelerate our development. But we're basically not having any ambitions to start talking in Germany and try to convince them that this is really good idea. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:47] Yeah, absolutely. And how many team members do you guys have at this point? How large is your team? 

Sander de Groot [00:11:54] We're now with 20 people in Amsterdam, and we have hired 5 people in Lyon. And we are continuously to hire. We aim for having also a 20 person team in Lyon and grow from there. So, every opportunity we can get to accelerate our program and our development, we try to pick up. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:15] Absolutely, absolutely. Well, we like to finish these off by looking at the future, so I want to give you the opportunity to talk about what you see as the future of nuclear and where you see nuclear energy playing a role in the global energy mix going forward. 

Sander de Groot [00:12:36] Well, I think the challenges of this energy transition are so enormous that without nuclear energy, this will not work. And we also need to be quick about it. That also means that a development like what we are doing will take too long. So, we need to establish light-water reactors which are off the shelf. Build them, please, everywhere you can; we need it. And for many reasons. It's climate, it's independence, it's emissions. It's just something that you should do. 

Sander de Groot [00:13:08] Complementary to that... And this is also how we basically position ourselves. We also need to take the responsibility in the nuclear sector to look at the waste streams, to look at how do you use your resources effectively. And I think molten salt is the ultimate technology that can make the most out of nuclear materials. Both in reduction of waste, long-lived waste, and in getting the most energy out of these resources that we have. So, I see this complementary role. 

Sander de Groot [00:13:35] And with molten salt reactor technology, there are many ways you can develop this technology. You can look at moderated system, you can look at fast spectrum systems. And it's all based on molten salt. So, once we have those systems operational, I think there's a very large future for this. But as said, complement to light-water reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:56] Absolutely. Sander de Groot, thank you very much for joining us on Titans of Nuclear. 

Sander de Groot [00:13:59] Thank you.

This transcript is pending.